Death of a Marine
Sincere regrets over the death of Marine Staff Sergeant Raymond Plouhar, who was featured in a sequence in Michael Moore‘s Fahrenheit 9/11 as he and another Marine went around Flint, Michigan, trying to recruit local youths. Plouhar, 30, was killed by a roadside bombing on Monday “while conducting combat operations in Iraq’s Anbar province”, the Defense Department said Tuesday. HE’s condolences to Plouhar’s family and friends. I’m sorry to report that as of 4:42 L.A. time, Michael Moore’s site hasn’t reported the news of Plouhar’s death…unless they’re hiding it somewhere. I don’t think is good form on Moore’s part.
And as of this moment ‘man of the people’ Michael Moore has no acknowledgement on his site.
There are assholes on both the left and right. There are good people on both the left and the right.
I am glad that more people are realizing that Michael Moore is an asshole.
If the left could get rid of his types some of us might even consider voting for them again.
Nicol: “And as of this moment ‘man of the people’ Michael Moore has no acknowledgement on his site.”
Moore didn’t kill him.
“I am glad that more people are realizing that Michael Moore is an asshole.”
Last time I checked, he didn’t kill 50,000 Iraqis and 2,500 troops on the basis of a lie.
“If the left could get rid of his types some of us might even consider voting for them again.”
Yeah, why can’t we have people who support the gutting of funding to public schools and lax environmental laws which protect miners, and people who refuse to stand by voting rights for minorities as well as equal pay for equal work for women?
Plouhar was quoted in the Marine Corps News when the 3/5 deployed in January of this year:
Although the thought of being away from their loved ones wasn’t favorable, Operation Iraq Freedom veteran Staff Sgt. Raymond J. Plouhar said, “The job needs to be done.”
And also, from Plouhar’s father:
“I’m devastated, sad and proud,” Plouhar said of his only son. “This just makes me devoted even more to his belief that people need help in Iraq, and he felt that he was helping.”
This post isn’t to take a stand on the war on either side, but I think it’s unquestionably the reason Michael Moore hasn’t said anything about his death, even if he does eventually post something.
My post above, by the way. I’m against the Iraq war, but just about as much, I despise Michael Moore.
“Last time I checked, he didn’t kill 50,000 Iraqis and 2,500 troops on the basis of a lie. ”
Daniel,
Please. Do you actually think I think you care about dead Iraqi’s or the military.
Where were you when Saddam had his rape rooms and torure chambers and killed 100,000 Kurds?
If you care about the military, why do they vote for Bush in overwheliming numbers?
Believe what you want, but I do get tired of the rhetoric.
Say it one more time…’Bush lied children die! Bush lied children die!
Moore is an opportunistic asshole and a liar. Hell, even George Clooney does not want to be asociated with him.
” I don’t think is good form on Moore’s part.”
What form did Moore ever have? His guerrilla style might be effective but he’s unable to see a viewpoint outside of his own. More than likely though he’s selfishly saving the news for F911 and one 1/2.
How ’bout considering the possibility that Michael Moore simply didn’t want to be seen as capitalizing on this man’s death to promote himself? If he had released a statement or given a few interviews, I’m sure he’d have been slammed for that, too. Perhaps he simply decided to allow the family time to grieve on their own without injecting himself into the story.
J.C., how could a respectful, brief statement of condolence be an “interjection”?
This whole post is a train-wreck! Why is everyone being so dishonest? The reason Jeff posted this item — although he’s too chicken to admit it — is because of the brutal, painful irony here. This guy callously manipulated disadvantaged kids into throwing away years (or the entirety) of their lives on a lie (remember, he was selling these kids on the glory and good times that lay ahead in Iraq) then exposed this lie by getting killed there himself. It’s sad when anybody dies for any reason but, as far as this sort of thing goes, this guy was not an innocent victim.
It’s a volunteer army, Sanfred. Shame on rich kids for not volunteering (not for war, but even to join the Army and go through basic), and forcing the military to recruit from the poor. The only way to make rich kids join is a draft.
No, shame on the military for not pouring the same efforts into recruiting the rich as they poor into recruiting the poor. And that’s beside the point…unless you’re defending the act of recruiting. And even that’s fine, but don’t cry for the “innocent victim” that strong-arms uneducated, disadvantaged people into giving their lives for the good of…wait, what are they fighting for again? The freedom of the Iraqi people…or is there a new excuse? It doesn’t really matter. Nobody seems to care what they’re fighting for, as long as lots of stuff gets blown up. Those arms manufacturers gotta pay the bills!
Yes, I’m defending the act of recruiting.
And no, I’m not defending the Iraq War, or at least the rationale for getting into it. But Michael Moore also came out against the Afghanistan effort, which shows me he has no respect for military bravery, period.
J.C., how could a respectful, brief statement of condolence be an “interjection”?
Posted by: NYCBusybody at June 28, 2006 06:17 PM
Given the invective spewed in Moore’s direction if he so much as sneezes in the wrong direction, I’m saying that keeping quiet, when the news of this Marine’s death is so fresh, is a respectful way to avoid having celebrity bullsh*t overshadow the painful news. If I were advising him, I’d give it a bit more time and then issue a brief statement, as you suggest.
You’re defending recruiting, but not the war these kids are being recruited for? If you’re making a blanket defense of recruiting, aren’t those two things inextricably linked? Are you saying that you’d be in favour of recruiting, no matter what the mission? If the US government needed to get some able young bodies together to go on streaking missions in mine-fields, would you be in favour of recruiting for that?
J.C.
Fair enough. I can dig that.
Regardless of where you stand on Moore (opportunistic, hypocritical huckster), the Iraqi War (25 million people freed from a murderous dictator at some very real cost to the US), or recruiting (it’s a volunteer force, and sadly, nothing in life is free), Jeff Wells showed real class with his rhetoric-free remembrance of Raymond Plouhar’s passing, and the kind condolences he offered to the slain Marine’s family.
I don’t like the Iraq war because of the rationale that was used to wage it (WMDs).
That being said, I don’t think any anti-war people really give a fuck about “innocent Iraqis”. Saddamn killed 240,000 of ‘em. You didn’t cry then.
JC…no one is asking more to shout condolensces from the top of the ESB. A simple acknowledgment on his little nook of the www would have been appropriate.
That said, it amazes me how many people can react to the Moore element without uttering one sincere or, shit, even an insincere word about the man who died. His notoriety makes him no more deserving of sympathy than any other person who recently passed, but christ, on a posting dedicated to him by Wells??? Come on, show some class.
Good point, delbomber. I’m pissed at myself for you having to poitn that out. I suppose I so take for granted how I feel about servicemen who lose their lives, that I forgot to express my condolences, even as it’s only for 11 people or so who’ll read this, and to his family.
Moore better not mention this guy on his site. He already exploited this guy enough is his movie.
How is following someone around and recording their actions exploitation? He didn’t exploit this man at all. The people who will use his (or anyone’s) death to promote a personal or political cause…now, that’s exploitation.
Filming someone, then cutting portions of that film into a piece of propaganda that the person would hate without having informed him of your purpose, is what I call exploitation.
Which is why Moore is being sued by another one of the Marines who appeared in the film.
Plouhar was quoted in the Marine Corps News when the 3/5 deployed in January of this year:
Although the thought of being away from their loved ones wasn’t favorable, Operation Iraq Freedom veteran Staff Sgt. Raymond J. Plouhar said, “The job needs to be done.â€
And also, from Plouhar’s father:
“I’m devastated, sad and proud,” Plouhar said of his only son. “This just makes me devoted even more to his belief that people need help in Iraq, and he felt that he was helping.”
This post isn’t to take a stand on the war on either side, but I think it’s unquestionably the reason Michael Moore hasn’t said anything about his death, even if he does eventually post something.
Exploiting someone who is in the act of exploiting other people is totally fair game in my book. This guy was happy and proud to show-off the act of playing used-car-salesman with human lives. People have lost their lives because he seduced them into Iraq with lies and hollow promises. Americans have been so aggressively propagandized for so long that they don’t even require a rationale for their thoughts anymore. And anyone who really believes that the United States invaded Iraq out of compassion for the oppressed people of Iraq are, well, stupid. And gullible. And completely out of touch with every aspect of American foreign policy for the last 50 years.
Nicol D – Do you think we believe for one second that you cared about the rape rooms and the Kurds????
No, we invaded on false assumption, whether it was a lie or not. The second it became apparent there were no WMD’s and therefore no justifiable threat to the US, we had effectively shit on our reputation and good name for all the world to see.
And you better believe I cared about why the military was over there, I have had friends yanked out of their lives because of the back door draft bullshit involving Guard units.
But Bush was right in the end about one thing: there certainly is a terrorist threat in Iraq… NOW.
So apparently the only thing that kept you from voting for Kerry was the fact you hated Michael Moore so much? That’s pretty rich.
Nicol: “Where were you when Saddam had his rape rooms and torure chambers and killed 100,000 Kurds?”
I was wishing that they weren’t funded by the U.S. government when we were fighting Iran. And considering what’s been going on in Abu Ghiraid and Guantanamo under U.S. occupation, that “Saddam was worse than us” argument doesn’t cut the mustard.
“If you care about the military, why do they vote for Bush in overwheliming numbers?”
They vote for him, because they expect him to be behind them, when he’s really just cutting funding for armor and vet benefits.
“Say it one more time…’Bush lied children die! Bush lied children die!”
Why shouldn’t I say that? Or are you one of those conservatives who thinks they’re only human beings when they’re in the womb?
Matthew: “His guerrilla style might be effective but he’s unable to see a viewpoint outside of his own.”
Yes, why can’t he be flexible like Mr. “Stay the course” Bush?
Roy: ” the Iraqi War (25 million people freed from a murderous dictator at some very real cost to the US),”
More like 25 million gallons of oil.
” or recruiting (it’s a volunteer force, and sadly, nothing in life is free),”
Unless you’re a draft-dodging son of a Governor like Bush.
NYC: “That being said, I don’t think any anti-war people really give a fuck about “innocent Iraqis”. Saddamn killed 240,000 of ‘em.”
Maybe because our sanctions against Saddam killed more than 500,000 of them?
Larry: “Filming someone, then cutting portions of that film into a piece of propaganda that the person would hate without having informed him of your purpose, is what I call exploitation.”
You mean like the swiftboaters?
I thought this was supposed to be about movies. Daniel Z, there are plenty of places where you can make your dishonest arguments against the war–you don’t have to waste them here.
Larry, rather than try to call the argument to a halt when the truth starts to hurt, why don’t you articulate why you support the war? Why exactly are Daniel’s arguments “dishonest”? Because they make you feel, god forbid, some guilt about your blind, misinformed support of the war in Iraq. Even the CIA has been very open about saying that all of their findings were edited, ignored or misrepresented so the Project for the New American Century could blow shit up in Iraq.
Look, I honestly believe people are entitled to support the war in Iraq, but support it for the right reasons. Support it for the reasons it’s really being fought. Don’t ignore the facts or, worse yet, lie about them. Support the war because you believe in the idea of American global domination and you agree that the United States needs to keep the Middle East destabilised in order to extend their dominance for a few more decades. That’s why they’re really there and all the key players have basically said as much. Don’t pretend that the US is fighting for human rights or the well-being of the Iraqi people because you know as well as I do that, in the xenophobic, foreigner-fearing United States, 1000 Iraqi lives aren’t worth 1 American life. If Americans are dying somewhere, it’s certainly not to protect Iraqis (who are also dying, in much greater numbers).
But Americans seem to be the only people in the world who truly understand one thing:
No one cares about American lives either, when push comes to shove. Everyone is out for themselves, no matter what terms they’re couched in. Realistically, why shouldn’t Americans try to be on the offensive? I’m sure just about every Iraqi citizen thinks, even if they wouldn’t say, that 1 Iraqi life is worth more than 1,000 redneck American lives. If you’re going to be that cynical about American morals and ideals, extend them to the rest of the world. No one truly gives a fuck about anyone.
NYC, weren’t you against the war yesterday? It seems like you’re desperately trying to reconcile several conflicting perspectives, which forces you to make crazy generalizations like “no one cares about American lives.” Based on what? Nobody’s starting anyfights with the United States. And people don’t just turn against the Unites States arbitrarily. You seem to view the U.S. as a country of oppressed people fighting for their freedom. The United States is the most aggressive, destructive, violent country in the history of the planet and you expect people to just accept that? Americans treat patriotism like a religion. As long as you have faith that your country is honorable, it must be true. Why get bogged down with pesky “evidence” or “reality”?
By the way, “no one truly gives a fuck about anyone” is an idiotic statement of the highest order, the kind of rationalization right wingers give for that big whole they feel where their sense of compassion and humanity should be. And your statement that, to Iraqis, “1 Iraqi life is worth more than 1,000 redneck American lives” doesn’t make sense because a) Iraq didn’t invade the United States and b) Iraqis don’t claim to be liberating the United States. They’re just minding their own business.
“Nobody’s starting anyfights with the United States”
I think 3,000 people in NY would disagree with you, if they could. And the Palestinians cheered this, no? As did most of the Arab “street”?
Does it matter who started it? Everyone wants everyone dead, no?
“The United States is the most aggressive, destructive, violent country in the history of the planet”.
It’s quotes like that that make the average American not give a fuck about the rest of the world anymore. If you really hate us that much, nothing except complete capitulation towards a New World Order would please you, so why worry about what you think? I said very clearly yesterday that I disagreed with the rationale for the war. We all knew there wasn’t a new WMD program, and yes, that it was a lie.
The point being, I firmly believe that Iraqis WOULD invade the U.S. if they COULD. Nihilistic, perhaps, but I’m a misanthrope through and through.
Which, of course, is a philosophical statement that is beside the point. Do I think the Iraq war was a mistake? Yes. I don’t think our fight is with Iraq. But we do have a fight. It’s just in other places, and I regret that the U.S. government chose Iraq.
Michael Moore was against the fight in Afghanistan. Enough said.
The terrorists who attacked on 9/11 were radicals representing a radical terrorist group, not a country. No country declared war on the US, but the US used that event as grounds to attack Iraq.
“I don’t think our fight is with Iraq. But we do have a fight.”
With who? People who are mean? Is the US still seeking revenge for 9/11 and why hasn’t that revenge lead them to Saudi Arabia where most of the terrorists came from? If Uma Thurman hadn’t killed Bill in Kill Bill, people would have very disappointed.
By the way, Richard Linklater made some perceptive points about this ridiculous war on terror in an interview at Aint it Cool News today:
“The two un-winnable wars on terror and drugs–you shouldn√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t call them wars, they should be approached in a different way than war–you see them joining at some point where it is this perpetual un-winnable, or not even attempting to win, just wars for wars sake. Orwell√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s idea of the continual war for the continual peace. I mean there are wars outside our country, which this hints at–they√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re down in other regions–fighting over some of these issues in the movie. But then there is always the domestic war that is going on, about our own government√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s relation to its people. Government and corporations–they become more powerful together–and their relationship to the unruly masses, all of us, who maybe aren√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t happy with their control. It is about the government√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s clamp down and the government√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s surveillance and keeping up with us. It√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s amazing how we sort of just get used to things. We just get worn down.
“A good example, I think, is airport security. The 19 guys who flew those airplanes were not citizens–they were not from this country. When you are going to have a ‘War on Terror’–if you wanted to target a profile–you wouldn√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t pick domestic citizens at all. You would pick people from other countries. But their first impulse was to start strip-searching grandmothers just to kind of show control. It√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s like, ‘They√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re keeping us safe’. They√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re not keeping us safe. They are just breaking us all down psychologically. Meanwhile all these shipping vessels are coming in unchecked.
“It√¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s really creepy and we are just sort of being conditioned to accept a lot of things.”
The reason they strip-searched grandmothers was because they knew the ACLU would sue if they profiled Muslim and/or Arab men. That’s their “first impulse” because they’ve been brow-beaten by loony left-wing groups.
To prove that they weren’t “racially profiling”, they made a silly charade of stopping children and grandmothers in security lines.
And why hasn’t that revenge led to Saudi Arabia? Because of oil ties we have there. Bush is cozy with the princes. That’s why, as I’m sure you well know.
while everyone here is fighting over the usual left vs. right bullshit, did anyone stop to think how wrong it is that not every deceased solider is given the “front page” treatment through the various news sources? whether or not one agrees with the war (and for the record, i do not agree with the campaign in iraq. please don’t call me a lefty bastard or a commie. thanks), one has to notice the limited attention these soliders are given through the media. usually, when a soldier passes there’s a tiny blurb on page 7 of the newspaper. the major news networks (cnn, msnbc, fox, etc. etc.) don’t even give it more than a slight mention. but this solider is given front page treatment, not because of the fact that he was a solider, but because of his connection to michael moore. shame on the media, every fallen solider would be given the same treatment, not because of who they were affiliated with, but because of the fact that they are serving their country. i find it so disrespectful that moore is even brought up in the article that i read. we demand that moore make some sort of statement on his website because he “manipulated” this young man, yet the media is doing exactly that…manipulating the situation to bring attention not on the fallen soldier or the war, but on michael moore. pretty weak.
I know and I’m trying to illustrate that, while we may “have a fight” (as you say), you shouldn’t expect the government to fight it unless it serves their financial interests. You may think our financial interests are important — assuming the interests of the people and the government are even aligned (I don’t think they are) — and we should fight wars to protect them. Others may agree, but how come nobody ever defends the war in Iraq on these grounds? Fundamentally, people know there’s something morally wrong with American troops and innocent Iraqis dying for money. But even those people who don’t care about either of these groups won’t admit the war is being fought over oil because they know that attitude would alienate the straightforward, good-natured people who naively support the war in Iraq. Believe it or not, the educated, informed people who support the war in Iraq (I know you’re not one of them, NYC) are supporting it for two reasons: money and power, not humanity and compassion.
“Filming someone, then cutting portions of that film into a piece of propaganda that the person would hate without having informed him of your purpose, is what I call exploitation.”
So people should only be seen doing the things they do in overall work that they agree with? Ah, okay.
The guy did what he did. It wasn’t misrepresented. And whether he knew where it would end up or not is immaterial. Yes, his actions were being criticized. Tough. That comes hand-in-hand with doing things people might find offensive. And if exposing that to a larger audience is exploitation then we are really through the looking glass now. (Oh, wait. The righties have their panties in a twist over the NYT writing an article on a program that’s been repeatedly discussed in public by the Administration, has its own website and monthly magazine, and is trotted out any time the Prez needs to swing his dick a bit. Yeah, I guess we’re way through that looking glass. Carry on.)