“Transformers” meltdown
An inside operator who’s enjoyed a certain perspective on the making of Transformers (Dreamamount, 7.4.07), the forthcoming Michael Bay fantasy-actioner, feels it’s “loads of crap” and “not fit for a barge.” These and other opinions were amusingly conveyed in a Transformer wrap poem that was posted last night on a certain website, and then taken down. A journalist friend copied and and sent it along before the erasure. The Beowulfian account lies three graphs hence.
Merd bombs of this sort never factor into the film’s commercial reception. Older guys taking potshots at a super-expensive pre-pubescent fanboy action FX flick is almost a badge of honor. It’s certainly a matter of very limited consequence in the greater scheme.
What does anyone really expect from Transformers anyway? It’s based on a damn Hasbro toy line (my kids were into Transformers in the early to mid ’90s), so what could possibly manifest beyond a sense of high-robot uber-coolness and a blitz- kreig of hot-lead “Bay-os” (a term coined by producer Jerry Bruckheimer, accor- ding to Variety‘s Dade Hayes, that refers to “automatic weapon fire, rumbling car engines, sweaty military dialogue”).
Before reading it, however, you need to know the players — Bay, DreamWorks chief Stacey Snider, producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura (allegedly alluded to as “Skorponok”), producers Don Murphy and Tom SeSantos, and DreamWorks production chief Adam Goodman. Anyway, here goes…
TRANSFORMERS WRAP POEM
The film is a wrap?
Wow, how about that!
It’s still loads of crap.
And the Stooges swallow this pap?
Murphy and Desanto lead the cheerleader charge
While Skorponok takes credit by and large.
The fact is today
There is nothing okay
The content of the film’s not fit for a barge.
Let your sugary friend answer the clamor
All you sweet kiddles want in on the drama?
The trouble beginning to end
Is named A-D-A-M Goodman
New studio head Snider
Decided him to fire
But then in a Hail Mary pass
Goodman kissed the right piece of ass
“Do not fire me, no do not please”
The chubby young Goodman said on his knees
I can do something you don’t want to do
I can control Michael Bay just for you.
New studio head Snider
Knew he’s a liar
But decided to stay out of the mess
“Sure Mr. Chubwon, you control Bay-san
And keep this boy’s movie shit off my dress”
Then dumb Mr. Goodman
As only a dunce can
Proceeded to hide in the sand
For the first time in history
It was a complete mystery
How one director had ALL of the power!!!!!!
The film is what it is and that’s all that it is
Most trufans will want to take a long whiz
And though valiant and Brave Tom Ian and Don slaved
Fact is Goodman gave the keys to the Kingdom to Bayed.
If you hate the dumb story
And realize the characters are a worry
And wonder how Bay could screwup so bad
Remember the missive that Sugarboy brought you
It wasn’t just Michael but Goodman too!
Obviously the operator feels very strongly that Transformers could have been something better (better? “better”?) than what has apparently resulted under Bay’s transforming influence. What a lot of bitch-steam over nothing. The more profound malady, as I’ve said two or three times since the days of Pearl Harbor, is that Bay could be a much more influential and widely-respected top-tier director (his chops are second-to-none) if he only had the vision thing…if he only had the willingness (ability?) to grow a soul, or at least direct a script that has one in abundance without Bay-ing it down.
I love the idea of “Bay-os”, I’m going to start using that myself. Like you said though Jeff, did anyone really expect anything from this other than exactly what it will be? To be honest this sounds like someone’s sour grapes bitching.
I’m ecstatic when Bay spends a few years doing something like this. Remember when he was rumored to be in the running to direct SUPERMAN? Hell, remember that THE ISLAND had good actors, a cool sci-fi premise, and still kinda sucked? I’d even argue that even the well-liked THE ROCK suffers from Bay’s tonal schizophrenia and bonus homophobia (though Cage and Connery and are a lot of fun in it). But what do I — what does anyone, apart from some craaaazy nerds who treat this toy line like it’s a book or something — care what Michael Bay “does” to the flipping TRANSFORMERS movie? If anyone is qualified to direct a stupid knockoff of Independence Day where robots fight other robots and also possibly the military, it’s Bay. I hope this movie hits big and starts a whole franchse and that Bay is under contract to make like six of these. Let’s keep him way the fuck away from anything I can take seriously as long as possible.
this movie will do a 100 mill opening weekend, maybe more…
I kinda agree with you, jesse, but I also agree with Jeff. I don’t want Michael Bay taking on a “serious” movie, but at the same time, isn’t sad to see talent like his go to waste on what is essentially a 2-hour long commercial for toys? Couldn’t Michael Bay get a soul…
As a sci-fi fan, I have to say “The Island” was pretty good. The visuals were incredible, the actors where solid and the story was fun. Too bad it tanked.
Stormbringer, I really wanted to like The Island since it had some incredible action sequences and I really like just about everyone in the cast (Ewan, Scarlett, Buscemi). But it’s just so dumbed-down with Bay’s dopey yuk-yuk humor. The set-up, where you’re supposed to be enveloped in this world, is so ham-handed, and gives McGregor all of these cutesy wisecracks about his surroundings, practically going “hey, what’s up with THAT?” — it’s just awful audience-pandering stuff that I think hurts his movies way more than the overblown Bay-os. Even though he doesn’t write his own movies or even always use the same writers, everyhing Bay directs *sounds* the same.
It would be great if he grew a soul and/or brain, but at the same time, I don’t know that his talent is any greater than any number of other directors (Ridley and/or Tony Scott, for example who themselves don’t always make great or even particularly good movies. I guess it’s hard to say about Bay, having never really seen him put to good use. But my gut feeling is that the best he could do would be something like Man on Fire or Black Hawk Down — movies that are pretty good but far from classic.
I’m not even a hardcore Bay-hater; I’m kinda okay with the massive stupidity of Armageddon. As with Transformers, it’s not the kind of movie that can really be “ruined” by Bay. But I do tend to prefer the Bay knockoffs like CON AIR or GONE IN 60 SECONDS to the real thing (they’re funnier and less tonally retarded).
I’m too old to care about “Transformers” from a nostalgia perspective, but when Wes Anderson does “Captain Kangaroo,” I’m there.
“Bay could be a much more influential and widely-respected top-tier director (his chops are second-to-none) if he only had the vision thing.”
First of all, Michael Bay’s “chops” are not second-to-none. They are second-to-many. But more importantly, it’s ridiculous to suggest that any brain-damaged Hollywood director can just “decide” to be the next Martin Scorsese. As we’ve already seen with McG and Brett Ratner, Hollywood hacks are still Hollywood hacks, no matter how seriously they want to be taken. Quality auteurs need to be commended, not only for deciding to make quality films, but for having the ability to pull it off. The difference between David Fincher and Michael Bay goes way beyond their choice of material.
To be fair, JD, Bay’s movies look a lot better than either Ratner’s or McG’s. But I do agree with you: I get the sense that just giving him a good script wouldn’t be enough. It would still feel like Bay. I mean, weren’t Pearl Harbor and The Island his shots at that? I guess they were still megabudgeted so maybe it doesn’t count. But you’re right — Bay directing The Departed or Minority Report wouldn’t turn him into Scorsese or Spielberg.
Clearly the guy makes purty action movies. I don’t think that can really be disputed. That doesn’t mean they’re all good…Armageddon is a good popcorn movie, Pearl Harbor sucked.
In theory Transformers should be up his alley (and one would think/hope that Spielberg as producer can reign him in) but I’m still wary. I’m one of those kids that had all the toys in the 80s and…basically I’m expecting some moments that make you go, “Cooool!” and not much else.
If he’d done Superman I would have expected about the same (McG Superman frightened me on many levels, however.)
So far Bay hasn’t shown any depth. I think a Bay “Departed” would suck but maaaaaybe “Minority Report” would have been okay. A Philip K Dick story, frankly, might be perfect for him; sci-fi but with brains.
He’s not a total hack and he’s not the devil and he’s not a genius. He makes pretty pictures and has a modern (ie ADD) style of editing that works for the pictures he makes.
Whether he WANTS to do anything deeper and whether he COULD do something that doesn’t involve blowing lots of shit up remains academic but I’d like to see him try. Clearly there is raw, technical talent there…
“Clearly there is raw, technical talent there…”
then he should stick to what bay does best: making commercials, a medium filled with raw technical talent and not an iota of soul or thought.
“Armageddon” is one of the worst popular movies I have ever seen and “Pearl Harbor” is unwatchable. I found it impossible to sit through on DVD. “The Island” starts out well and then just collapses into sheer idiocy. Michael Bay isn’t fit to carry Tony Scott’s jock (& Scott made one of the worst movies ever in “Domino”). Still, to get bent about the existence of “Transformers: The Movie” is as pointless as trying to defend Michael Bay as a good action director.
Can we get a judge’s ruling on ‘directing chops’ please? I’m not buying the assertion that Bay has any. If it means ‘blowing crap up on screen’, then I guess he’s got them in spades, but if it means the ability to direct a coherent action sequence or to draw out great performances from actors then I don’t see it.
And suggesting Bay grow a soul or develop a vision is like asking a pig not to roll around in shit. Take away enough defining behaviors and the animal is no longer a pig. Michael Bay is Michael Bay and people who like him are drawn to his Michael Bayness. His talent is in removing the soul and intelligence from his projects so to suggest he could, should or would want to direct something smart or soulful is crazy. His movies haven’t made billions of dollars worldwide because they make you think about the big picture.
What “certain website” did this go up on?
C’mon, isn’t it obvious who wrote this? I actually admire him for writing it. He could have just said nothing.
Or does Nancy Allen need to whisper to you in the hall on the way to the police station garage?
“isn’t sad to see talent like his go to waste on what is essentially a 2-hour long commercial for toys?”
No. Commercials are exactly what he should be directing. He and the material deserve each other.
Anyone over twelve who’s remotely interested in this is a sad doofus, pure and simple. If you’re in the right age group to be familiar with the toys, it’s not your fault. If you still give a shit, it is. I remember the original Scooby Doo cartoons, but I haven’t seen the movies. Why would I?
As William Shatner said in that infamous sketch….well, you know what he said. Go get laid or do drugs or trek across India or hold up a liquor store…anything but a freakin’ Michael Bay Tranformers movie.
(If you have kids and they make you go, you’re exempt, and you have my most sincere sympathy. Bring your ipod.)
Are we still seriously debating his directing skills? I almost walked out on The Rock after ten minutes (I was overruled) and that was supposedly one of his good ones. A thirty-second conversation does not need eighteen cuts unless the material sucks so bad you’re worried the audience will fall asleep otherwise.
ps
I was just informed by two under-30 males in the room that they’re both excited about this thing.
I say we bring back the draft.
We haven’t heard much from old Spam Dooley in a while, so he’s writing poetry now.
Damn…all this anti-geek talk is making me feel bad for hoping that if this takes off they’ll give the GI JOE movie to Bay. (Clooney for Duke! Jet Li for Snake Eyes!)
It’s a soulless tent-pole, that doesn’t mean it’s bad.
Armageddon and The Rock were both dumb, harmless fun. Maybe not as “good” as, say, Crimson Tide and Top Gun but they are what they are.
I don’t know that Bay has RUINED any project he’s been given. Are we suggesting he sucked the soul out of the Armageddon script? One can suppose at this point that he isn’t getting offered anything deeper (or that he knows himself well enough that when “Cold Mountain” lands on his desk he can let Minghella take it instead).
I haven’t bought a Transformer since the 1980s and I’m not the one who has kept them in the public consciousness enough for a studio to pony up $200million to make a blockbuster movie about them.
I’m not JAZZED about Transformers but it has the potential to be a fun, fanboy movie. There’s no crime in that.
As I said above, Spielberg had this baby and I have to think he wouldn’t have handed it to Bay without an idea that he could do it right. And, if not, maybe Stevie can do like in Poltergeist and just direct it himself anyway.
where’s actionman when bay needs him most?
As a commercial director/writer person I take umbrage at the “a medium filled with raw technical talent and not an iota of soul or thought.” comment. jeepers, let’s just poke at stuff we don’t understand.
Michael Bay isn’t a great director, who could argue otherwise, but he has his own thing going on and someone thought it would be the perfect thing to director a movie about plastic toy crap from the ’80s… I think that just about sums it up for me.
Honestly I don’t want Michael Bay directing anything “serious”, can you imagine how bad that would be?
It would be as bad as Pearl Harbor.
Seriously, though, aside from the technical aspects, commercials possess very little artistic value. In fact in a lot of ways, they are anti-art. Feel free to try and convince me otherwise.
I think Michael Bay was born to make a TRANSFORMERS movie. Although that. fucking. editing he. does. where every. shot. has. significance. irritates. me to. no end.
“jeepers, let’s just poke at stuff we don’t understand.”
with due respect to those few who’ve elevated a soulless medium, my post stands. i’m sick of ads commercials branding etc and the rampant nihilistic hateful marketing i.e., billboard ads for women tortured across la doesn’t prove my thesis wrong. watch tv and see how many of today’s ads are filled with people being hurt abused humiliated. show me the soul, man.
and i’ve worked with plenty of these ad folk and their callowness is legion.
michael bay’s work reflects that spirit.
or lack thereof.
but it’s the reason ad directors are popular in hollywood. they do the branding work required with little of the pesky artistic aspirations that fuse art.
Can we get a judge’s ruling on ‘directing chops’ please? I’m not buying the assertion that Bay has any. If it means ‘blowing crap up on screen’, then I guess he’s got them in spades, but if it means the ability to direct a coherent action sequence or to draw out great performances from actors then I don’t see it.
And suggesting Bay grow a soul or develop a vision is like asking a pig not to roll around in shit. Take away enough defining behaviors and the animal is no longer a pig. Michael Bay is Michael Bay and people who like him are drawn to his Michael Bayness. His talent is in removing the soul and intelligence from his projects so to suggest he could, should or would want to direct something smart or soulful is crazy. His movies haven’t made billions of dollars worldwide because they make you think about the big picture.
Maybe I should judge EVERY film Director based on Michael Bay then? Obviously some people have already determined their opinion and no amount of “convincing” would suffice no matter how passionate, or rational, I might make it. Needless to say, I would think, that hacks exist in all professions. Beautiful, moving, emotional work is not only possible in the advertising, commercial world, but is being done everyday. The fact that you don’t believe that, doesn’t prove anything, other than your ignorance.
Maybe you should ask David Fincher what he thinks?
^^^ How about a single example?
actionman is working!
i don’t need to defend Bay. He’s an amazing shooter and puts together the best pure-action movies…at least for my dollar. nothing more really needs to be said. Transformers will be 2.5 hours of gigantic robots tearing shit up. You’re either down with that…or not.
but please…keep debating the merits of Michael Bay…I know I find it quite entertaining.
Joe Pytka’s Budweiser “Welcome Home”
That’s just one. More feeling, emotion, passion, pride in one minute than in 2.5 hours of giant robots tearing shit up.
Sorry about that, my first time posting a link in a comment here.
Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq9yAauMEkA
Or this maybe:
Budweiser
Interesting try, except for two things. One is that it’s not really a commercial, it’s a very short film. You can say “all commercials are short films” which just becomes a matter of semantics, so let’s say that for this discussion, yes, it is a commercial.
In this case, it becomes fairly horrible in that it’s using our servicemen and their sacrifices to sell beer. I would call that offensive.
Plus, either way, it’s pretty obvious and incredibly hard to believe. It’s selling a fantasy notion.
I find 2001 pretty hard to believe, cause it’s selling a fantasy notion. This argument could go on forever, there are just as many variations in quality, approach, style, storytelling, in commercials as there are in films. I certainly wouldn’t judge 2001 from seeing The Shaggy Dog remake, that would be unfair.
And just for the record, two weeks before Joe’s commercial broke during the Super Bowl, I was on an airplane that was nearly full when a half-dozen servicemen and women entered. The spontaneous standing ovation nearly mirrored the one in the commercial.
And I love 2001, even though I still haven’t seen a black obelisk.
Who’s Joe?
In any case, that spot does not fit my definition of art – or at least, good art. It’s simplistic and uncomplicated and too short to offer any genuine emotional insight. I could punch you in the stomach and that would produce some feelings on your part but you wouldn’t call that art either.
Actionman, rather than debating the merits of Michael Bay (I believe either you buy into it or you don’t and not amount of logic will change minds either way), I’d rather hear what you as a fan think of him doing something more serious as Wells suggests.
Joe Pytka.
Like I said before, your opinion isn’t an opinion, it’s what you know. So I’m not going to be able to change it.
1984
Hate
Meridian
Three more, right off the top of my head. ONE MINUTE, 60 SECONDS (ok, one of those is 120 seconds.) And yes, they are short films. And no, they don’t suck ass like the thousands of other crappy spots out there. And why are we debating this anyway?
This post was about Michael Bay for goodness sake.
Those are all great-looking eye candy but none of them are art. In order to be art, as far as I’m concerned, you have to have a complex and emotional _purpose_ to what you are producing. The purpose of each of these spots is: consume more and associate our corporate brand with positive emotions (Apple = fighting tyranny, Budweiser = patriotism). These filmmakers are enshackling their talents to hollow pursuits (and making a crapload of money in the process).
Gosh, you just described 90% of Hollywood. “Enshackling their talents to hollow pursuits and making a crapload of money.”
Sums it up nicely. What exactly is the difference?
This is relevant to Bay because he represents the ultimate in the ‘all pretty images/no content’ approach to filmmaking. Any jackass with enough money and access to a good cinematographer can make a pretty and impactful shot (or a commercial, which requires the least creative effort of any type of filmmaking since all the work is done by the ad agency).
Just because 90% of Hollywood makes crap doesn’t invalidate my view that 100% of the commercial world also makes crap.
Pelham: “”Armageddon” is one of the worst popular movies”
Was it really popular, or did people just see it anyway? I mean this is the 90s we’re talking about after all..
frank: “I almost walked out on The Rock after ten minutes (I was overruled) and that was supposedly one of his good ones.”
I stopped taking it seriously after that Nick Cage IV scene. Shitty actors deserve shitty filmmakers, I guess…
DavidF: “I don’t know that Bay has RUINED any project he’s been given. Are we suggesting he sucked the soul out of the Armageddon script?”
Dunno if it’s true, but I heard the French audiences were laughing when they saw Armageddon
at a premiere, and Willis had to demand they take it seriously.
“I haven’t bought a Transformer since the 1980s and I’m not the one who has kept them in the public consciousness enough for a studio to pony up $200million to make a blockbuster movie about them.”
The movie wouldn’t be worth $200 million, even if the toys were still as big as they were in the 80s.
christian: “with due respect to those few who’ve elevated a soulless medium, my post stands. i’m sick of ads commercials branding etc and the rampant nihilistic hateful marketing i.e., billboard ads for women tortured across la doesn’t prove my thesis wrong. watch tv and see how many of today’s ads are filled with people being hurt abused humiliated. show me the soul, man.”
Not to mention all the bullshit “pre-show entertainment” you’re forced to sit through at a movie screening.
The movie has a budget of probably $150m and you can be sure the marketing budget and cost of prints will be around $50m.
I agree with you about Bay, just confused about why the jump to trashing commercial directors? Many of them are hacks, many are tired and washed up, many just do what the agency says, but many are extremely talented creative people with vision. I could say exactly the same thing about feature film directors, many of them are hacks, many are tired and washed up, many do exactly what the studio wants them to do, but many are talented creative people with vision.
Michael Bay is an administrator that surrounds himself with a good crew that all share one common purpose, to make a Michael Bay film, like some kind of cottage industry.
But that doesn’t take away from great film and neither does a bad commercial take away the fact that some truly awesome work is being done in a medium whose PRIMARY purpose is selling shit in a minute instead of two hours.
Oh, Joe Pytka: the man behind the raping of the Looney Tunes in Space Jam to promote Michael Jordan’s shoe line. Clearly an artist of vision.
Good grief, its like AICN all over again. I’m outta here.
I consider myself zinged by the comparison with an AICN troll, but still essentially correct in everything I have been saying.
The mere form and goal of a commercial means that it is inherently unartistic. Craft at the pursuit of emptiness is a waste.
Be sure to let us know what you do for a living so we can trash your advocation as well, in the spirit of fairness. And tomorrow I’ll tell the eight inner-city schools that are counting on my “inherently unartistic” commercial to keep them open, that it’s simply a “waste”.
I should probably also consider giving back the numerous creative excellence awards, the DGA awards and various heavy whatnots from a twenty plus year career of stepping all over little brained morons like you. Nah, I’ll keep ‘em.
Thanks for proving my statement about you correct.
What statement?
I’m an editor for a living. I’ve worked on documentaries and short films. If I was offered to work on a commercial I’d consider it but I could never work for a corporation of product I didn’t believe in. I simply wouldn’t be able to understand how to do the work.
As for your alleged awards…Yeah, maybe you should give them back, if you’re so insecure that a couple of comments from a guy like me puts the notion into your head. Or maybe these thoughts were already there.
And since when do inner-city schools advertise? Is your campaign “Inner-city schools. Not as bad as you’ve heard!”
PS: ‘Advocation’ is a legal term. You mean ‘vocation’ and even then you’re using it incorrectly, because nobody ever goes to bed when they’re a kid and dreams ‘someday I’ll make films that convince people to buy stuff they don’t need’.
“The mere form and goal of a commercial means that it is inherently unartistic.”
To someone inherently purist, perhaps, but not in a real sense.
I’m puzzled how the form of a commercial contributes in any way to your conclusion, jeffmcm. The only consistant form commercials appear to have is their average length.
I also don’t quite buy the “goal” side of your arguement either. To use filmmaking for an example, you can wind up with an artistic result even when there isn’t a purely artistic goal at play. The director might have real art as his or her goal, while the producers have profits as theirs, and the screenwriter could be using the film to advance a certain socio-political cause.
Good point, compromise is an inherent part of the process. But I don’t see how a commercial can ever be anything other than debased. When I say ‘form’ I mean that it’s intended purely for the purpose of marketing a product and all other concerns are subjugated to that goal.
It’s called sarcasm butt wipe, and I always use my words correctly.
Advocation: The act of advocating or pleading. In this case your sorry ass opinion about something you don’t understand and your own self-delusional holier than thou ego trip.
And, just so you know, these inner-city schools are only open because of people who donate as a result of commercials like the one I am shooting tomorrow. 99% African-American and 94% go on to college. Commercials btw that I pay for 100% out of my own pocket. It’s called giving back more than you take.
And Hallick touched on a good point, all a movie REALLY is, is a TWO HOUR COMMERCIAL for the studio that paid for it. Look how many people salivate over the box ofice returns every weekend, reporting it like its news. And you call that art? Phifft! (And that, so you don’t have to look it up, is a fart in your general direction.)
Sure, your inner-city commercials are a public service. But they’re not art, any more than a bake sale is art. (And if you gave back more than you take, you would be bankrupt.)
And a movie can be a two-hour commercial for various things: Transformers is a two-hour commercial for its associated toys and comic books, Zodiac is a commercial for existential uncertainty, 300 is a commercial for bloodlust. But I cannot think of a movie (aside from maybe That’s Entertainment) that is a commercial for its own studio.
Finally, you said “let us know what you do for a living so we can trash your advocation as well”. In this sentence the context clearly says that you thought you were saying ‘vocation’. Nice try but another failure.
By the way, my opinion may or may not be ‘sorry ass’ but I’m pretty sure that I understand every aspect of what we are talking about. A Rembrandt painting is art. A James Joyce novel is art. A Fellini film is art. But a Pepsi commercial, no matter how lavish and well-crafted, is still nothing more than an attempt to make me buy Pepsi.
I’ll remember that the next time I see an ad or ad poster or commercial trailer or product tie-in for a movie and think, “hmm, that looks like it’d be worth paying good money to see.” Cause I forgot that the studios make movies for the art of it all.
Now I see the error of my ways. Thanks. Look up another word for me, its called Hypocrite. Here I’ll save you the time:
Hypocrite: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.
So I don’t suspect we’ll be seeing you at the movies any time soon?
Joe Pytka directed Let it Ride, and that is a solid fuckin’ movie.
That Transformers poem was pretty damn funny.
And I tell you what, 2 and a half hours of Michael Bay directed robot battles sounds like a good afternoon to me. If it’s terribly hot out. And I have a big bag of grass to smoke before, during, and after.
Actionman, rather than debating the merits of Michael Bay (I believe either you buy into it or you don’t and not amount of logic will change minds either way), I’d rather hear what you as a fan think of him doing something more serious as Wells suggests.
now we have to PAY to watch commercials in a movie theater.
fuck ‘em.
klaus kinski said it best:
“have a coke and a smile? i have a coke and my stomach hurts.”
oh, and winchester, you didn’t say anything about grass.
just let me know what row you’ll be in…
Hey I forgot about Let it Ride, not bad. And I HATE commercials in the theater, just know I never did one of those.
Why not, they didn’t offer you one or they didn’t pay you enough?
“I’ll remember that the next time I see an ad or ad poster or commercial trailer or product tie-in for a movie and think, “hmm, that looks like it’d be worth paying good money to see.” Cause I forgot that the studios make movies for the art of it all.
Now I see the error of my ways. Thanks. Look up another word for me, its called Hypocrite. Here I’ll save you the time:
Hypocrite: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.
So I don’t suspect we’ll be seeing you at the movies any time soon?”
Do I even need to respond to this? Don’t be stupid.
Okay, I will respond. When I go to see a movie, I’m paying, most of the time, to see a narrative with characters where the intent from the filmmakers is to explore an issue, or to express a feeling, or to capture a time and place.
When I watch a TV commercial, the intention of the makers is to give their product a positive association and make me consume more of it.
Your first point “the next time I see an ad or a poster” is irrelevant. None of those things, no matter how well-constructed, are art either.
Obviously studios make movies for money – but (a) I try not to see movies that are obviously money grabs with no redeeming content, like Wild Hogs or TMNT, and (b) the best filmmakers are interested in something other than seeing how much cash they can rake in. I believe you mentioned David Fincher earlier?
If you really wanted to make your point, you should have said “I guess we won’t be seeing you watching TV any time soon” which is correct since I’m not an exhibitionist. But more to the point, I make it a point to try and buy things because I actually think they are good products and not because of advertising hype.
I’m sorry that you have such a case of self-delusional pretentiousness. If I was in your place with your multiple DGA awards I wouldn’t be arguing with some punk on the internet about the merit of my chosen career. Or, I’d take six months off from my lavish lifestyle and make a personal film.
Bay is wrong for this project, and has been from the start, because he’s INCAPABLE of presenting anything with genuine weight or seriousness.
Call me “fanboy” if you like, but the reason this bloody franchise endured long enough and spawned a fanbase devoted enough to warrant this movie had a lot to do with the fact that the original series was made by folks who opted – for whatever reason – to present this doofy toy commercial premise in the style of a mostly-serious pulp-scifi mythos. It’s a deceptively-simple formula: Patently-ridiculous overall premise treated with 100% straight-faced seriousness. Bay couldn’t even manage to wring genuine emotion or weight out of PEARL effing HARBOR… no way he can get it out of this.
I’ll say it again: This is “Godzilla 98″ all over again. They’ve got no idea what they really have here, why it was popular in the first place or how to make it work now. Even an concept as simple as NOT making the robots look like over-designed messes has eluded them.
I’ll second just about everything MovieBob said.
It’s only because of Spielberg that I think they might pull it off (well, that and the fact that they apparently came up with something resembling a reason that the robots look like earth vehicles; something never addressed in the cartoon).
As for DZ and his usual round of non-sequitrs…
DavidF: “I don’t know that Bay has RUINED any project he’s been given. Are we suggesting he sucked the soul out of the Armageddon script?”
DZ:
Dunno if it’s true, but I heard the French audiences were laughing when they saw Armageddon
at a premiere, and Willis had to demand they take it seriously.
Back to me: So…you don’t know if that story about the French laughing is true and even if it is you’ve utterly failed to address my point (ie that Armageddon was not some deep art film in the script stage before Bay raped it). Besides, who gives a shit about French audiences? (Insert Jerry Lewis joke…)
Thanks for coming out!
Besides, I teared up a bit with Affleck there when Bruce sacrificed himself. You know you did too, DZ. Maybe it wasn’t Willis’ acting, maybe it was knowing that he acted in Pulp Fiction and that Tarantino stole Willis’ performance from somewhere. Maybe that’s what made you cry – but I KNOW there were tears.
DF said:
“I haven’t bought a Transformer since the 1980s and I’m not the one who has kept them in the public consciousness enough for a studio to pony up $200million to make a blockbuster movie about them.”
DZ said:
The movie wouldn’t be worth $200 million, even if the toys were still as big as they were in the 80s.
Are you saying that it didn’t COST $200 million (which was what I said) or that it won’t MAKE $200 million?
Nevermind answering – you’re wrong either way.
DZ said:
Not to mention all the bullshit “pre-show entertainment” you’re forced to sit through at a movie screening.
DF says:
Dude – we are in total agreement in something! Fuck them. Fuck them up their stupid asses.
Okay exhibitors, let’s make a compromise. You can either have 10 minutes of lame car and AXE commercials once the lights go down or your stupid digital slideshow (which sometimes has the same ads!) but you CANNOT have both!
What? You won’t give in and I’ll just have to suck it?
Well…nevermind then. But fuck you anyway!
But I am having so much fun arguing with you, do I really have to stop? Actually, I did take four months off last year and directed a film that I wrote and produced that did quite well in the independent circuit. And I’m not defending anything, I don’t have to. What I am doing however is attacking your ignorance about what art is and isn’t, and your unfounded and unreasonable attack on people who choose to make their living in a different way than you. I happen to know better and perhaps that is what makes me the most angry about people like you, who go around making blanket statements about things they know nothing about. No one is making you watch commercials, in fact, it is easier than ever before to simply ignore them, skip over them, or erase them. It’s called Choice.
But to say you only buy products on their merits and not on their advertising shows your own ignorance of how things work. and how easily manipulated you truly are. I’ve sat in meetings about people like you and you wouldn’t believe what the big companies know about you and use to their advantage. So who is being naive here?
Studios don’t invest money in projects for simply altruistic reasons, they expect and demand a return on their investment. So a movie doesn’t sell a product, so what? It IS selling itself to you the consumer of movies. A service you pay for. Trying to deny that is simply ignorant. We’re all part of the system, money in, money out.
So they make a movie about Transformers. They did the math, pure and simple, $200ish million out, and how much in? Box Office? Toy sales? Merchandise revenue? Retail tie-ins? International BO? God, Transformers will be HUGE in Asia. That alone makes the investment worthwhile. And why? Because of advertising.
So no, I am a realist. Not a defender of something that needs no defense. But I am done talking about it with you. Because, as I stated way back at the very beginning (if you were paying attention) people like you do not change their opinion. Because you don’t have one, you already “know” something, and no matter how rational, logical, or reasoned the argument, you will never change your mind. And changing our mind is the foundation of human intelligence, something you wouldn’t know anything about.
Maybe we can agree that there is a continuum.
At one end are impetrenable art films.
At the other end are objects of pure whoredom.
In the middle is your average popcorn movie.
To the right are “great, deep films.”
To the left are well done music videos and commericals.
Clearly the object is ultimately “selling” but I think we all know when we see a music video or commercial that transcends that. It’s worth noting that without amusing Ikea and Gap ads we might not have “Being John Malkovich” and without the video for “Janie’s Gotta Gun” and who knows how many car commercials we wouldn’t have “Zodiac.”
Given the choice I’ll watch Seven over Fincher’s commercials (heck, I’ll watch Alien3 over the commercials) but that doesn’t mean there’s no art there.
Ditto for a movie about a series of cool toys…
Can’t we all (sniffle) just get along?
APOLOGIES IF THIS DOUBLE-POSTS
Maybe we can agree that there is a continuum.
At one end are impetrenable art films.
At the other end are objects of pure whoredom.
In the middle is your average popcorn movie.
To the right are “great, deep films.”
To the left are well done music videos and commericals.
Clearly the object is ultimately “selling” but I think we all know when we see a music video or commercial that transcends that. It’s worth noting that without amusing Ikea and Gap ads we might not have “Being John Malkovich” and without the video for “Janie’s Gotta Gun” and who knows how many car commercials we wouldn’t have “Zodiac.”
If I’m not mistaken Fincher and Jonze still do commercials between flicks.
Given the choice I’ll watch Seven over Fincher’s commercials (heck, I’ll watch Alien3 over the commercials) but that doesn’t mean there’s no art there.
Ditto for a movie about a series of cool toys…
Can’t we all (sniffle) just get along?
David: “Back to me: So…you don’t know if that story about the French laughing is true and even if it is you’ve utterly failed to address my point (ie that Armageddon was not some deep art film in the script stage before Bay raped it).”
Probably not, but it still says a lot, if Bay can’t even satisfy people at a leave-your-brain-at-the-door level.
“Besides, who gives a shit about French audiences? (Insert Jerry Lewis joke…)”
At least Jerry Lewis’s films are meant to elicit laughs.
“Besides, I teared up a bit with Affleck there when Bruce sacrificed himself. You know you did too, DZ. Maybe it wasn’t Willis’ acting, maybe it was knowing that he acted in Pulp Fiction and that Tarantino stole Willis’ performance from somewhere. Maybe that’s what made you cry – but I KNOW there were tears.”
I actually didn’t bother seeing it, although apparently my mom did, when it was used at a science lecture to demonstrate how little it had to do with things like physics and astronomy. Anyway, Willis was acting long before Tarantino came along. The only reason he did Pulp Fiction was to have something “artsy” on his resume which didn’t immediately tank like “Color of Night”.
“Are you saying that it didn’t COST $200 million (which was what I said) or that it won’t MAKE $200 million?
Nevermind answering – you’re wrong either way.”
The cartoon movie couldn’t even make $10 million. Why the fuck would a cg movie be a bigger hit than that?
giantman: “They did the math, pure and simple, $200ish million out, and how much in? Box Office? Toy sales? Merchandise revenue? Retail tie-ins? International BO? God, Transformers will be HUGE in Asia.”
They got plenty of giant robot shows in Japan already. Why would this one stand out from the pack?
Moviebob: “I’ll say it again: This is “Godzilla 98″ all over again.”
I was thinkin’ Toy Soldiers myself…
“Besides, I teared up a bit with Affleck there when Bruce sacrificed himself.”
this is true. i had broken up with a girlfriend and watched this in a desperate state, hated the entire thing and cried when bruce died.
“But to say you only buy products on their merits and not on their advertising shows your own ignorance of how things work. and how easily manipulated you truly are. I’ve sat in meetings about people like you and you wouldn’t believe what the big companies know about you and use to their advantage.”
and this is where your argument falls apart giantman, tho you’ve done a man’s job, sir, of defending yourself.
i don’t judge all those who make a living doing ad work, but the arrogance of your claim is exactly what comes through in today’s marketing.
these “big companies” are bully psychologists and they do think they know what appeals to lower brain desires.
your weird defense of this shows that you don’t have much empathy for us dummies ignorant of how the big companies twist and manipulate emotion in favor of selling us crap.
but i know. jeffmcm does too.
advertisers even have a phrase for people they can’t reach. i bet you know it.
and david fincher is full of shit.
My bad. Small Soldiers.
DavidF – Well said, and I agree. A whole range of good and bad. That was my point from the beginning.
DZ – Oh I know that, the Japenese love their giant robot movies. And generally I do to. But Transformers will do well there, if I remember Godzilla did pretty well there too. Or maybe that was Waterworld?
Christian – It is the opposite actually, I don’t like that part of the business anymore than someone in hollywood might like all the crap that goes on there either, I was just pointing out the truth, doesn’t mean I like it. Heck, the world is full of crap like that.
And David and I have a history and I’m no fan of his personally, but I do like his films.
DZ SAID:
The cartoon movie couldn’t even make $10 million. Why the fuck would a cg movie be a bigger hit than that?
DF SAYS…
Are you seriously implying that this film is likely to make $10 million?
Will you promise to never again make a Tarantino-related comment if this comes to pass? I’ll even make it easy for you – if it doesn’t make $10 million in the FIRST DAY I’ll happily travel around the country, tracking down everyone on this board until they sign a pledge to agree with every inane comment you make for the next two years.
Gee, I wonder if anything has changed in the 21 years since the cartoon was released (well, we know Judd Nelson hasn’t been asked to voice anyone so that tells you something)? I wonder if the film has made any money on its two DVD releases? If the toys or the new version of the TV show have made any money?
No, you must be right. Box Office is the single biggest indicator of a film’s success. That’s why Clerks, Office Space, The Big Lebowski and 25 other movies I can name off the top of my head are all utter failures. The latter made about $17 million which basically means no one saw it which basically means that when I say, “Nobody fucks with the Jesus,” no one here has any idea what I’m talking about…that right?
I wonder if Spielberg is utterly clueless as to how much of a non-entity (artistically and financially) this project is in your estimation?
Own up: do you say these things because you believe them or merely because you enjoy the attention?
giantman: “But Transformers will do well there, if I remember Godzilla did pretty well there too. ”
I can’t find any box office info on it, but I do know that not even their own Godzilla movies do well there anymore.
“Or maybe that was Waterworld? :”
Dunno how that did either, but even if it was a hit in Japan, it still barely made any money.
David: “Are you seriously implying that this film is likely to make $10 million?”
Um, no. I’m implying that it won’t be a hit, even if it goes over $100 million.
“I wonder if the film has made any money on its two DVD releases?”
It probably has, but people liked the film, not necessarily Bay.
“If the toys or the new version of the TV show have made any money?”
The toys and the new version of TMNT made money, and the film was still a disappointment relative to its predecessors.
“Box Office is the single biggest indicator of a film’s success. That’s why Clerks, Office Space, The Big Lebowski and 25 other movies I can name off the top of my head are all utter failures.”
Clerks actually made some good money off its limited release. The Big Lebowski and Office Space were profitable on home video, but they were cheap to produce. Bay’s last movie, OTOH, was expensive enough to force Dreamworks’ shareholders to sell off their company to Paramount.
DZ – Just for the record, Godzilla98 made $242million in foreign BO, 64% of its total earnings of $379million. And that was for a total stinker of a movie debacle.
I was curious about Waterworld, and it made $175million in foreign BO, 66% of its total of $264million.
No point really, other than sometimes these movies tend to play very well overseas.
“DZ – Just for the record, Godzilla98 made $242million in foreign BO, 64% of its total earnings of $379million. And that was for a total stinker of a movie debacle.”
What can you say? Jean Reno’s popular overseas. But with marketing and distribution costs alone, it probably only made $150 million total at best, which is decent, but not super. Doing a little better than Van Helsing’s not really that impressive.
“I was curious about Waterworld, and it made $175million in foreign BO, 66% of its total of $264million.”
It also cost almost $200 million, but only if you exclude P+A.
Re THE ISLAND: Michael Bay set the likelihood of a genuinely good remake/imitation of LOGAN’S RUN back about five to seven years.
I saw THE ISLAND in a now-closed bargain theater in North Hollywood. And its sole virtue is that it got me out of the 100+ degree heat for a couple of hours.
No doubt, not trying to say they are any good, only that these big expensive action shows tend to do well in overseas markets. I suspect that Transformers will follow suit. What that means, in the end, who knows?
They only do well when they don’t cost a fortune. Otherwise, they just break even.
Congratulations Giantman. You have been roped into another argument with JeffMCM.
A persona that any regular frequenter of either Wells or Poland’s blog knows well.
Let me tell you something about JeffMCM….No matter the topic, no matter how correct or right you are; JeffMCM ALWAYS takes the Contrarian P.O.V. because this poor soul has an INSATIABLE NEED TO BE RIGHT.
No matter what the subject, Jeff always takes the opposite side because he has this fetish with arguing, debating and needing to be right.
It’s incredible how when the facts are presented to him in such a clear cut manner, he will still try and spin reality around to his own need to be intellectually superior or whatever.
He posts at both sites all day long, sitting on his cinematic and intellectual high-horse making posts about his cinematic expertiese, yet we do not see him ever owning what he does in this town and game.
I know we share the same Alma Matter for film education, so I know he’s not intellectually stupid. Just emotionally retarded.
Don’t fall for it. He loves to argue to hear himself argue.
Jeff….You are the NEW Spam Dooley, buddy. God, innumerable posts and I have still to see you concede a point on ANYTHING.
It is a running private joke among the board members of the Hot Blog.
Still, we share the same alma matter, and we both agree on Wells, so I have some love for the cat.
But I swear, Jesus could come back down himself, resurrect JeffMCM from the dead; and I GAURANTEE Jeff would still argue whether or not it was really Christ, because in his view, Christ would not be such and such…
Trust me, people….Save your energy.
THX – Oh I know, I’ve been a regular here and at the other site for years. Normally I wouldn’t get involved, I usually just read or make a point and move on. But last night I had some free time and he really pissed me off with his snide remark about commercial Directors, NOT so much about commercials in general, cause I happen to agree with much of that being crap, but a lot of good, talented people make a honest living doing that work. Mostly until a better opportunity comes along.
Some people however…
You’re wrong (ha ha).
Just because you (THX) were wrong on a single occasion in the past where we argued, you feel a need to obsess over my presence – that says to me that you’re more petty than I could ever be.
I will say that calling me Spam Dooley is a pretty big insult.
Oh, and who are the “board members of the Hot Blog”?
I will also say that I’m more interested in discussion than in ‘proving myself right’, so in that spirit, to Mr. Giantman if he cares to answer: what is your definition of art? I think I already laid out mine.
PS: I am not as ignorant as you think about the influence of advertising in my own life. I have never bought a car, so car commercials don’t affect me. I use the same toothpaste and soap I’ve used all my life, so those were consumer decisions made by my parents. And I buy gas whereever it’s the cheapest.
I just read over the thread some more and I can’t believe that THX would call _me_ Spam Dooley for engaging in a spirited dialogue jut before frigging D.Z. goes on and on in a repetitive exchange about the Transformers boxoffice.
Take me off your grudgelist, THX.
I am also not interested in arguing, but I do believe I’ve made my point over and over again to no effect. So let me take your challenge yet again and see if this works. Not to change your mind, but at least to concede a small point.
Someone once said, “I don’t know art, but I know what I like.” As distasteful as that quote might be, he has a point. Art is subjective to the individual viewing it, experiencing it. I think the only thing we can ALL agree on is that Art is a pursuit that primarily appeals to the visual sense and is some sort of permanent form, although many Artists have strived to oush the envelope on both these points. The fact is that Art is hard to define by its very nature. Your Art is my junk, and vice versa. In the true sense of Art this is embraced and welcomed, for it is the nature of the Artist to interpret his or her vision as they see fit, not in an appeal to mass acceptance necessarily, although again, many Artists have pushed the envelope in that regard as well, but to be true to their own vision. This is why so many Artists remain unappreciated in their own time, although that isn’t as true today as it once was, simply because of mass communication, whose growth is primarily feed through sales which are driven by advertising dollars btw. (As an aside, so is the Western economy which has given us tremendous return on investment in science, technology and other areas of higher human achievement, all of which it could be well argued, is feed by capitalism, which in turn is fed by advertising. But Iam off-subject.)
The truth is that your definition of Art is your own, no matter how much you want to have other people agree with you. Simply by doing so you have shown your ignorance of what Art really is, a personal decision on what your opinion will be. I have mine and others have theirs. And your opinion about what Art might be does not, in any way, invalidate theirs. No matter how much you might like it to.
This isn’t anything personal, its just the way it is. And you can choose to agree or not, in the end it matters not one iota to me.
And now, I really am done with this thread. I had a long day today saving Inner City Schools.
Yeah, that must be tough.
You aren’t really getting my point, though. You didn’t give a definition, you just said ‘art is whatever you want it to be’ which doesn’t really mean anything. My point is that if we believe there is such a thing as art at all, then we also have to believe that it has parameters and criteria for evaluation and discussion. For example, back to art history 101: is something art just because you hang it on a wall or in a museum? Were Duchamp’s ready-mades art just because he happened to be a famous artist and he said so? In our more specific realm of TV and movies, why is Citizen Kane art and Debby Does Dallas pornography? Or are these mutually exclusive terms?
The original point I was making was that for me, authorial intention is one of the most important criteria. And that therefore, since a commercial is _always_ intended for a non-artistic purpose, then therefore it cannot be art – or at least, _good_ art. It can be artful and well-crafted, but by definition it can never cross that line.
The other subject I want to address has to do with pornography, again. I’ve come to believe that the difference between art and pornography is that porn is anything that gratifies a particular need. So obviously there’s sexual porn, but there’s also gore porn (the Saw movies) and emotional porn (most soap operas on TV) and art porn (Matthew Barney). Without hopefully pissing people off further, I would say that most commercial directors who turn to feature filmmaking end up making porn of one kind or another because their films consist of nothing but state-of-the-art glossy images used to sell a nonexistent story (this is all that Michael Bay has ever done – Fincher, not so much). And the reason for this is because the training ground of making commercials teaches you to fulfill a single emotional want in a short, focussed period of time. The guy who makes a 30-second spot selling beer by using girls in bikinis is fulfilling two dual needs: his client wants an ad that provides positive association with the product, and the consumer wants something with eye-candy in it. Mutual satisfaction results.
My point is, this is a delivery system for emotional satisfaction – and nothing that can be boiled down to such simple terms can be accorded the term ‘high art’ in my estimation.
PS: I never argued that all of this isn’t on a continuum – I completely do. But every continuum has milestones and markers.
Jeff,
How was I wrong on that single occasion?
You boasted that your undergrad school in Washington is a superior film school than USC.
Yet, this whole time you’ve NEVER been willing to name what undergrad you went to that offers a “superior” education on cinema, than USC. One of the top, if not arguably the best, cinema schools in the world.
So, if you’re unwilling to divulge this mysterious Washington University that offers a superior cinema education, And if I remember, you were comparing it to a program at USC that you knew NOTHING about, how am I wrong? (For those keeping score, and not in the know, jeff and I are both USC grads. But when you’ve busted your ass to get in, and then paid your own way to get through that expensive program, you take it seriously when some hater says his other school is better, BUT WON’T SAY WHERE!)
Your perspective on Art and commercialism is just as skewered and invalid as what you think Post-modernism is.
As for HotBloggers, pretty much any regular poster that I’ve had a private conversation with; voice or electronically has mentioned how close-minded and skewered your perspective is.
And while it’s obvious you’re a smart guy; Having discussions with you is a chore. Instead of enlightening because your perspective is so obtuse and narcicisstic, that having any back and forth is impossible, thus negating any enlightenment from the dialogue.
Instead of a sharing and expressing ideas that grow from each other; EVERY conversation with you has a subtext of “I’m right, you’re wrong – no matter the facts..I’m right you’re wrong.”
I’m just sorry you have such a need to prove yourself right. Who knows what kind of knowledge and insight you’re missing out on from others because all that clouds your vibe is: “I’m right, you’re wrong, no matter what”
Give me a link to a thread, here or from THB where it’s clear that you concede a point and admit to not being right, and I will wipe you off my “grudge-list” (though if I had one, you’re the only name).
I don’t believe you can.
It’s a very limiting perspective you have towards others opinons. It’s very sad.
And yes, you’re completely obtuse perspective and stubborness irks of the same abrasiveness as Spam Dooley.
Seriously though, you’ve posted so much here and at THB, you’re almost famous around “these parts” maybe you should start your own blog so you can be your own sad little king on a sad little hill.
I don’t dislike you or begrudge you, but it’s maddening and frustrating to see someone who obviously is a very smart and good person; display such low emotional intelligence and even lower social skills when interacting with others.
God expresses itself through EVERYONE Jeff, not just you. Keep an open mind on others perspectives, don’t judge, and who knows? You might actually grow and prosper!
I say it cause I love ya buddy!
Bottom line Jeff, for such a good person, you come across like the biggest “Hater” on both sites.
Stop.
Please.
More for yourself than the rest of us.
A lot of industry people read both sites Jeff. Ask yourself:
Do you think anyone in this town would want to WORK with someone so close minded?
You’re aggravating.
First, here’s an excerpt from a discussion I had on The Hot Blog about Frank Capra movies:
“I apologize, Lota, but tone is hard to convey on a blog. But I meant what I said about ‘small’. American Madness (a very good film) and General Yen are chamber pieces. Mr. Smith and It’s a Wonderful Life are symphonies. Simple as that.”
I apologize to you if I I sound argumentative, but that’s the nature of the beast. Plus, why get involved in a discussion if all you’re going to do is agree with someone? That strikes me as a waste of time.
Next, I don’t know where you got the idea that I went to a college in Washington. I went to Williams College in Massachusetts, which does not have a film program, by the way. I don’t recall you, or anyone, ever asking where I went. And I would absolutely rank the three professors in the English department there above any USC professor that I ever had in terms of critical studies.
I believe the discussion when we first clashed had to do with your notion that Jaws was a postmodern film because Spielberg used a zoom-in/track-out shot. This is incorrect and it shows that someone didn’t teach you what the term ‘postmodern’ actually means. If the Jaws shot was consciously referencing Hitchcock’s Vertigo shot, it would qualify, but that’s not what is happening at that moment. Not your fault, theirs.
Lastly, as far as your point about ‘industry types’, I really don’t give a shit about them. If I wanted to ingratiate myself in the industry to have a career, I would just be another vacuous Ari Sandel, with no personality except for a gaping need for acceptance. I can only be who I am (which is actually quite shy and retiring in real life).
Best wishes
Jeff McMahon
Note: Williams has more than three English professors, but it has three who are also interested in film that I learned from: James Shepard, Shawn Rosenheim, and Steven Tifft. Also Lynda Bundtzen, but she’s kind of a dope.
Note: Williams has more than three English professors, but it has three who are also interested in film that I learned from: James Shepard, Shawn Rosenheim, and Steven Tifft. Also Lynda Bundtzen, but she’s kind of a dope.
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