Barry Lyndon Reconsidered
Stanley Kubrick “always admitted he took too long to make Barry Lyndon,” former Kubrick assistant Leon Vitali tells The Reeler’s Jamie Stuart. “There was about a year of pre-production, a year-plus of shooting, then he took an awful long time to edit. And by the time it was ready to come out, I would say, the blockbuster action movies had become de rigeur. That was what the people really wanted to see. So when this film came out it was received as strange, slow, completely out of context to what was going on.
“And I think people were expecting something a little closer to A Clockwork Orange, which, of course had caused such a furor. It was living! A Clockwork Orange was playing for over a year in London. And Barry Lyndon was trashed by many critics, equally so in the UK. That really hurt Stanley a lot. He was very depressed about it. Very upset about it. He took it to heart.
“It took a long, long time really before…I can tell you exactly when it was… It was in the early ’90s. The BBC ran a series of his films on television. It was all the films from Lolita, Strangelove, 2001, Clockwork, Barry Lyndon, The Shining …The Radio Times, which is like a TV Guide, but more of a magazine, I suppose — they gave each film a critical breakdown. Well, they gave Barry Lyndon five stars, because they believed that was the true Odyssey film: you start with someone who’s lowdown; he travels all the way around Europe; gets himself into the upper-echelons of the British aristocracy; then there’s a slow decline back to where he came from. It’s a classic Odyssey story.
“They gave it five stars and all the other films got four stars, but perfect critiques. And they said if it hadn’t been for the fact that wBarry Lyndon was playing along with these other films, they would have given all those films five stars. I realized there’d been a real turning point, especially toward the end of Stanley’s life, where we were getting feedback from a lot of critics that suddenly said: ‘I’ve just seen Barry Lyndon again and I did not realize at the time what a wonderful film it was.’ They went so lyrical about it.”
I — not Stuart, not Vitale — have seen Barry Lyndon at least fifteen times. Possibly a bit more than that –I’ve lost count but who counts and who cares? It’s brilliant, mesmerizing, exquisite — a dry, note-perfect immersion into the climate and mores of William Makepeace Thackeray‘s novel, and, by its own terms, one of the most perfectly realized films ever made. But the problem — and this needs to be said (or re-said) with all this passionate but vaguely snobby Lyndon gushing going on — is that it turns sour at a very particular point. And, in my eyes, it is just a notch below great because of the dead zone section in the second half.
I’m speaking of the moment when Barry (Ryan O’Neal) blows pipe smoke into the face of his wife, Lady Lyndon (Marisa Berenson). Something happens at that moment, and from then on it’s “oh, odd…the energy is dropping, and I’m starting to enjoy this less.” For another 30 to 40 minutes (or what feels like that amount of time), Barry Lyndon gets slower and slower — it becomes more and more about stately compositions and dispassionate observation.
Then, finally, comes the duel with Lord Bullington (Vitale) and Barry gets his groove back. Then that perfect, dialogue-free scene with Lady Lyndon signing checks with Bullington and Reverent Runt at her side, and she signs the annual payment to her ex-husband. And finally, that perfect epilogue.
There’s one other draggy component that diminishes Barry Lyndon, and in fact makes the dead-zone portion even deader than it needs to be, and that’s Berenson’s performance. Even now, the mere thought of her glacial expression — there’s only one — in that film makes me tighten with irritation.
barry lyndon never dips in quality. so wrong, its not even funny.
barry lyndon never dips in quality. so wrong, its not even funny.
so wrong i had to say so twice.
This post kind of reminds me of my dad yelling about how Eyes Wide Shut wasn’t “sexy” enough.
I’ve said it before, but it’s Ryan O’Neal, being miscast, that almost brings this brilliant film down. He just doesn’t have the acting chops to pull off this character.
speaking of kubrick, a clarion call to all HE readers to settle a bet with a kubrick freak:
kubrick cut out a final scene from THE SHINING in the hospital film a week after the film was released in america. does anybody know the exact details of when this was cut and if it was cut from all the prints or a few? info on the web or kubrick bios is scant and varies.
please help.
According to the Alternate Versions section on the IMDB.com listing:
Director Stanley Kubrick edited the ending on the third day after release, removing about 10 minutes at the end: starting after the closeup of ‘frozen Jack in daylight’ it goes to a pullback shot with part of a state troopers car and the legs of troopers walking around in the foreground with jack in the background, then cuts to the hotel manager (Barry Nelson) Stuart Ullman walking down a hospital hallway to the nurse’s station to inquire about Danny and Wendy, he’s told they’re both doing well and proceeds to Wendy’s (Shelley Duvall) room, where after some gentle conversation he tells Wendy that searchers have been unable to locate any evidence of the apparitions she saw. Then it cuts to the camera silently roaming the halls of the Overlook hotel for about a minute until it comes up to the wall with the photographs, where it [back to the ending as it is now known] finally closes in on the photo of Jack in the 1921 pic.
I just found out Kubrick got nominated for a Razzie for The Shining. What the hell?
I appreciate this kind of take on a classic film. I’m always wary of people who hold up certain directors as godlike figures who can do no wrong. I’ve always felt that Barry Lyndon is just a little bit of a snoozer; great film, incredible cinematography but it never jumps to the top of my list when I think of my favorite Stanley Kubrick films.
thanks joe, i have that as a reference but my friend claims that the scene was never seen in america since he saw it opening day — in michigan — but it’s clear that people have seen this. i wonder if it was just in for new york-california audiences…
This is yet another example of why you shouldn’t have expectations for a movie other than to be entertained in some way. Plus, some movies take time and repeted viewings to truly appreciate.
I saw Barry Lyndon for the first time in high school (mid-1990s). During my sophomore year, I had finally realized that movies made before I was born could actually be good. I was working at a video store and had a marathon viewing of everything we had that was directed by Kubrick. Lyndon was probably the last one.
I remember that my intial impression was that Lyndon was visually similar to his other movies and that it was a tad slow around the middle. Very enjoyable movie overall. I wondered why I never heard of it before since his other movies like 2001, Clockwork Orange, etc were so well known. Guess the bad early reviews explain why.
Eyes Wide Shut oozes sex BTW.
Barry Lyndon is a strange film in that you can have a different experience with it every time, depending on your mood, state of mind, etc. The first few times I saw it, it blew me away. But the more I watched it, the more I realized how dull it is. It still amazes me every now and then, but it lacks the joy of both cinema and life. It’s a miserable film, in that it’s all about misery and emptiness. It conveys this feeling admirably, but it’s not a very satisfying objective from an audience perspective. I for one think Sofia Coppola improved upon Barry Lyndon in one key way when she made Marie Antoinette. She understood that the decline only really works if we feel that something is being lost, some fleeting sense of pleasure and fulfillment. In Kubrick’s hands, Barry Lyndon’s life feels empty from day one and that approach undermines his decline from a dramatic perspective. And yet, this irony is also central to the film’s appeal: if you have an emotionally empty life and you lose everything, where are you then? It’s a deeply bleak film.
I think Lyndon, like most of Kubrick’s films, is pretty damn bleak when it comes to human nature, relationships, and development. I like the work, as crazy as that sounds, because it isn’t sugar-coated and gift wrapped like most Hollywood productions nowadays. He always just laid it out there. Barry Lyndon is no exception. He was also working from a pretty bleak novel too. Same with Lolita, Clockwork, and Shining.
I probably need to watch this again. Certainly, the filmmaking is impressing, and there’s a richer layer of irony in this than in many other period films, even the good ones (as more than one critic pointed out, there’s really no one to root for here, not even the so-called “hero”, and as JD pointed out, it’s about an empty person who loses everything). But I have to admit I still have problems with O’Neal (though he did a wicked Kubrick parody in IRRECONCIABLE DIFFERENCES) and Berenson; they just seem out of place.
I’ve only seen “Barry Lyndon” once and on VHS, but I was quite surprised at how much I liked it. I had heard all the negative talk about it (slow, dull, Ryan O’Neal, etc.) I was completely engaged from Fade In to Fade Out.
As for Kubrick getting a RAZZIE nomination for “The Shining” that was not a universally praised film when it was released. A lot of people felt Kubrick butchered King’s novel with a high level of directorial ineptitude and/or arrogance. I mean King had a mini-series remake of it on ABC. So, the RAZZIE doesn’t surprise me. I think “The Shining” is great, too.
I wouldn’t say butchered King’s novel, but like all Kubrick adaptation, when it says “based on…” it means it. Nicholson swinging an axe is not even the same weapon available in the novel. There is a lot of artistic license. To be frank, however, that miniseries that King endorsed just isn’t as good as the Kubrick film. Could have been the acting, financing, or it could just be Kubrick’s stamp on it.
My reactions to Barry Lyndon have gone the opposite way as JD in that the first time I saw it, I was kind of bored but every time I watch it I like it more and more. The first thing that surprised me was how slyly/dryly humorous much of it was. I also hate Ryan O’Neal in general, but he’s not a liability in this film for me. He’s actually perfect in his vacancy and his efforts at being a real actor (and not quite pulling it off) dovetail nicely with the character’s efforts to be upper class and failing. There’s a phoniness and a discomfort barely concealed by an irrational self-confidence that works in a weird way.
I think it might be my favorite Kubrick though in a desert island situation I might still have to go with Strangelove.
maybe you kubrick geeks didn’t read my post carefully.
i need info on this SHINING alternate ending and how long was it playing?
now provide or i shall continue to taunt you.
I absolutely love Kubrick, but hard as I try, do not care for “The Shining.” It has it’s moments – but overall, I find it to be one of Kubrick’s weaker films. My major problem is how easily Jack Torrance (Nicholson’s character) is taken over by the hotel. I have the same problem with the book. It would be a much better film and book if Torrance struggled with his and the hotel’s demons.
Edward, isn’t that the point? Jack is pretty far gone by the time he shows up. I know the movie just hints at the time before briefly where Jack hurts Danny before the film/book start. He is “cracked” already, so the bad stuff just slips in through the cracks and fills him up. My interpretation.
On a desert island, I’m going with Clockwork. I’d need a bit of the old ultraviolence if I was all alone.
“To be frank, however, that miniseries that King endorsed just isn’t as good as the Kubrick film.”
I am Frank, and you just made the understatement of this young century. The miniseries was stagnant, dirty dishwater, and King judged Kubrick’s film according to fidelity to his novel rather than actual merit.
I find Lyndon irresistible. It’s quietly hilarious and never boring. The way Steven Berkoff frowns in humiliation when he realizes his hand has been bested at cards… It looks like a spider crawling down his face. And Michael Hordern’s perfectly measured narration is a wicked delight.
Speaking of omniscient narration…
Last weekend I caught Little Children, which Vitali produced. His name is in the credits as “Oddly Familiar Man.” I couldn’t recall who that was in the movie. Anybody know?
i’ve never liked THE SHINING primarily because it was the first king book i ever read way back in 78 and i remember being instantly scared even in class as i read it undercover.
camerawork aside, the film doesn’t work for a lot of reasons, nicholson starts out crazy whereas king wanted michael moriarty who would have been better. duvall’s line readings are weird until she freaks and the talking finger is kubrick’s biggest unintentional laugh getter.
i think kubrick’s films have generally unsatisfying performances because of his need for 50 plus takes. no matter what technical mojo you get, you’re fucking the actor with that system.
now. about that SHINING alternate ending…
Amen, frank! I can appreciate King’s concern about the Kubrick version of The Shining. But it’s a great novel that needed some work to translate to the screen. I think Kubrick’s film succeeded. The miniseries, while incredibly faithful to the novel, still loses something. It’s like the Harry Potter movies, if I can go on a tangent. The first 2 drove me nuts because they are sooooo much like the novels. Be creative, use your imagination as a filmmaker when you have that great source material. You don’t have to try to put in on screen page for page. I like Kubrick because there is some license taken with all of his films that are adaptations.
I’ll stir the pot more by saying I LOVED Eyes Wide Shut. Saw it back in college with a roommate and we were blown away that the man who made Full Metal Jacket, 2001, Clockwork, The Shining, etc. also made that. They all have Kubrick’s stamp, but the films seem so very different. I think there’s something beautiful in that. I see too many directors, writers, and actors doing what amounts to the same thing over and over. Barry Lyndon is nothing like his other works except in theme really. Or am I crazy?
Sorry Christian, can’t help you. Kubrick nerd I may be, but I’m not one for Kubrick minutia if it’s not on the screen. If Kubrick had no use for it, then neither do I. As far as I’m concerned it doesn’t exist. How nerdy is that?
It would be different if it was a studio imposed cut or something.
This is what IMDB says:
“When first released, the film had an alternate ending: the party photos shot (now the last shot in the film) dissolves to a scene in a hospital, where Wendy is resting in a bed and Danny is playing in a waiting room. Ullman tells her that they have been unable to locate her husband’s body anywhere on the property. On his way out, Ullman gives Danny a ball — the same one that mysteriously rolled into a hallway earlier in the film, before Danny was attacked in room 237. Ullman laughs and walks away while Danny “shines” the Overlook Hotel. Stanley Kubrick had the scene removed a week after the film was released.”
And rightly so, it sounds superfluous and like a mediocre Twilight Zone ending.
gee cj, i don’t know what to say. excising a full ending scene and chopping out 20 minutes for the international release is not that minute. it’s revealing to him as a filmaker and certainly changes the intent of the film. according to reports, the excised ending is far creepier.
you mean you don’t even want to see the famous pie fight from STRANGELOVE?
i’m going over your geek credentials right now. there may be a chance of demotion.
I think the general consensus is that the Kubrick films before and including Dr. Strangelove are stylistically Kubrick part 1, whereas 2001 and the subsequent films are Kubrick part 2. The later films all share a certain deliberate pacing and stylization of performance, which is certainly visible in Strangelove and Lolita, but the later films share some additional aesthetic similarities. The only thing that really separates Barry Lyndon from Kubrick’s other work, in my opinion, is its period, though even the modern and futuristic films also vary a bit in this regard. What separates Eyes Wide Shut from the rest of his films — and this is always forgotten — is that Kubrick died immediately after finishing his first cut… with 4 months left until the release date. Knowing the last minute (and even post-release) changes he made on 2001, The Shining, etc., it’s hard to believe that Eyes Wide Shut is a fully realized or complete Kubrick work. I’m sure he would have done some fine-tuning during those 4 months and silenced many of the film’s detractors. Personally, right from the opening credits, I felt something was amiss because there were fades on the credits, rather than the traditional, Kubrickian hard cuts.
I may be mistaken, but I believe the European cut of The Shining is different than the US version. It might have the original ending.
Christian: Go forth and seek out Ebert’s Shining review. If memory serves, he writes about the deleted ending.
I’ve always thought that the point of The Shining was the the malevolent force that permeates the hotel is really after Danny, who is a powerful psychic. Jack is doomed from the moment he walks into the hotel. He is the weak point and the hotel capitalizes on that to get to Danny.
Regardless, King’s miniseries is atrocious. I cannot believe he had the nerve to tack a happy ending onto it. What happens to all these creative guys from the 70s (Spielberg with the radios in E.T., Lucas and Greedo shoots first) who feel the need to take the edges off their early works?
Re Stephen King and Kubrick’s “The Shining”: While King has voiced some problems with it thematically (de-emphasizing the domestic violence theme) and criticised Kubrick for thinking he could make the be all, end all horror film with no experience in the genre, he’s generally been complimentary of it. I can’t begrudge him, though, for wanting a second bite at the apple that was more in line with the story he conceived.
See his non-fiction book “Danse Macabre,” where he describes Kubrick’s “Shining” as “a maddening, perverse, and disappointing film” that “somehow retains a brilliance that is inarguable,” and lists it as a personal favorite of important horror films.
Christian, I’m weird with Kubrick. Maybe it’s because he was so hesitant to allow his process to be illuminated in the first place, I play along. I don’t want to see the man behind the curtain so the ins and outs of production decisions that he made don’t mean much to me. Even dramatic ones.
Of course, if he came back from the dead to record director’s commentaries for his DVDs, I’d run right out and buy them, but in a way I’m glad he never did one.
I’ve already had to turn in my heterosexual card because Cabaret is one of my favorite movies so turning in my nerd card because I’m not process obsessive about Kubrick wouldn’t be a major blow. It’s not laminated or anything.
i have already read ebert’s review but the ending reveal is based on reports from another film critic not ebert.
my friend doesn’t believe this ending was released in theaters but it’s clear it was.
you’d think with all the kubrick stuff out there one could find the answer to this.
even more tantalizing is all the scenes cut from CLOCKWORK ORANGE that kubrick appararently had buned and buried. wtf?
i know spielberg reads this site.
steven? need the info.
btw, it’s crystal clear sir that EYES WIDE SHUT was not properly edited. it doesn’t work for me because a lot of the editing is off, especially the awkward reveal of cruise’s mask on the pillow.
and there’s no way kubrick would not have cut down the syndney pollack “i was there” confession.
“Nicholson goes bonkers right away” is an old and tired criticism.
Watching Jack Torrence wrestle with the Overlook’s influence on him would have made the movie a boring tragedy.
Instead, The Shining is like Hitchcock’s “bomb under the table.” The suspense builds in a linear trajectory because you know what’s going to happen.
For some, that’s boring. I find it terrifying.
I know this is off topic, but it’s just so refreshing to read a genuine discussion about film on the comment board, rather than the usual petty sniping. Cheers everybody.
Fortunately, Eyes Wide Shut is pretty damn good even if it is not-quite-finished. Weren’t there plans recently from Warner Bros. to release the ‘international’ (aka uncensored) version here?
When Barry Lyndon was released, I went with trepidation because of the hostile reviews and the mediocrity that is Ryan O’Neal but was thoroughly enthralled by it, finding it superior even to Thackeray’s novel, which I had dutifully read as soon as I heard that SK was making the film. I’ve seen it three times since, the last earlier this year on a 50-inch plasma, and have liked it less each time. It is beautiful to look at and the use of music is extraordinary, but it is thematically obvious and dramatically inert. I’ve seen Shining three times and remain completely mystified by its popularity. On a desert island, I would go with The Killing.
Okay, but how about a definitive explanation for Jack being in the old photo at the end? The ambiguity irks me. The best thing I can come up with is that the hotel sucked him into a photo to make him into a kind of trophy on the wall (“another soul I captured!”). But I’m up for a better explanation. Anyone? Anyone?
it means the overlook took him over and now he’s part of it. the end. still not scary.
I saw The Shining the Saturday of opening weekend in Kansas City and the movie definitely ended with the photo of Jack in the 20s or whenever. If audiences saw the hospital ending– which I never have– it was only in NY and LA or something.
Kubrick cut it even further at another point– the “non-theatrical” version (ie, university film societies, prisons, etc.) had another 15 or so minutes cut, losing the scene with Anne Jackson as the psychiatrist among other things. This was, not surprisingly, very badly received when I showed it in college and a large portion of the audience knew what was missing and complained….
Also, at the time I don’t think that people bitched that Kubrick had been unfaithful to a great author like Stephen King– I think they felt that Kubrick was slumming going from high art to a commercial scary movie, that’s probably more the reason why he won a Razzie.
Or, it could mean that the essence of Jack Torrance was part of the hotel all along. He had, in fact, “come home.”
Enjoy being irked.
First time I saw Barry Lyndon I was 17. I remember looking at the guide on my Satellite and I saw Barry Lyndon playing on HBO starting at 4AM. Set my alarm for way early, made my way to the TV, sleep still very much in my eyes. When it started, I was mesmerized. Not my favorite Kubrick film, but its in my top 5. I worked at a video store, one day a woman and I were having a conversation about film. She told me her least favorite film of all time was Barry Lyndon. I asked why, “It’s soooooo long, the narrator was so monotone. He tells you every plot point before and after it happens.” I replied, “Yeah its different, but what do you expect from Kubrick?” She replied, “Something intelligent, challenging, thought provoking, and overall entertaining….” I just smiled.
thnks mgmax, i’m assuming the scene was only for new york-la.
but cj m’boy, if kubrick cut 20 minutes for the international version but left it in for america, that doesn’t qualify as a single vision does it?
i bet wells knows, but i heard he’s part of a corpse fresco in rome.
Christian, but ultimately he didn’t leave it in the American version…by the time I saw it, it was what it was…or am I misunderstanding you? That would be bloody typcial of me, but in my own defense I have a summer cold and I’m feeling a little funny in the head… you know… just a little… funny.
He regularly recut his films. 2001 was trimmed after its premiere, and from what I understand he was still tweaking it from time to time until his death.
He was a director who worked through reduction. He didn’t know what he wanted so much as what he didn’t want. Kubrick often began shooting with nothing more than a scene-by-scene outline. From there, collaborating with the actors and using the original novel, he’d craft and script and mold the scenes cinematically.
It’s very much a single vision. It’s just not a process where everything is preplanned like the Coens or Fincher or Spielberg. The process was always open and evolving.
Christian, it probably doesn’t add much to what you already know, but see the subsection “Versions” here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shining_%28film%29
I love “Barry Lyndon” but had I been a moviegoing Kubrick fan when it was released, I probably would’ve seen it as “Jackie Brown” to “Clockwork”‘s “Pulp Fiction.”
“Eyes Wide Shut” is gorgeous crap that follows a repetitive cycle: Tom Cruise goes out, almost has sex with a woman who kinda looks like Nicole Kidman, the fucking is foiled, he returns home and his wife tells him something that bums him out and then the cycle repeats….
I think Stephen King is right. A different lead actor would’ve served the story better. I’ve heard he suggested Moriarty but was really hot for Martin Sheen — who I think would’ve been much warmer, then possibly even more terrifying. King also wanted a sexier Wendy (and, based on the “making of,” I’ll be Kubrick would agree with that).
I was in the opening day audience at the Criterion in NY for The Shining, so I saw the hospital scene. The description above is pretty accurate, including Barry Nelson giving Danny a rubber ball, but it was actually the ball that Jack had earlier bounced off the Overlook’s wall, and when Danny had it, he bounced it as well, making Nelson smile. The implication seemed to be that Jack’s madness might have passed on to Danny now that Jack was a part of the hotel.
I recall that over the film’s first weekend, Kubrick had the scene cut from the few prints that were circulating at the time, with a personal representative making the edits at each theatre. Of course I don’t know why Kubrick made the cut, but I can say that the scene played out so slowly and in such a hushed way that we in the audience were expecting some kind of final shock effect (this was the same summer as the original Friday the 13th, after all), and when the film just cut to the dolly into the photos on the wall, it seemed anticlimactic. The cut from Jack in the hedge maze to the dolly is more effective.
I think the film itself is a masterpiece, but as always with Kubrick, one that has much more to do with his own concerns than the original source novel. It was widely attacked when first released for not being scary enough, and it’s been funny to see it belatedly placed on just about every list of the best horror films ever made.
And anyone who thinks Barry Lyndon has a “dead zone section” just doesn’t get the film…
“A different lead actor would’ve served the story better.”
Who cares about serving one of Stephen King’s stories? You know, there’s movie versions of Christine and Firestarter and all kinds of things, if you care about that. There’s only one The Shining. Even though there have been two adaptations of the book…
“Enjoy being irked.”
Clearly Kubrick wanted to leave mysteries which weren’t solved and were open to interpretation. Another example: the “Delbert Grady” Jack meets clearly does not match the description he was given earlier in the movie– he seems to belong to the 20s (I forget when Grady is supposed to have lived but it wasn’t that long ago in the story), he’s not a caretaker, etc. We’re not meant to arrive at one neat explanation.
“”Eyes Wide Shut” is gorgeous crap”
Kubrick should have made, or at least set, EWS in 1969. It’s a witty little late 60s sex comedy-drama that should have been 90 minutes, briskly paced and starring a young Dustin Hoffman. Instead it’s 2-1/2 hours long and takes place on a very strange planet.
TO CHRISTIAN:
From page 453 of the Taschen book on Kubrick —- “After the initial theatrical release, a mumber of changes were made under Kubrick’s supervision. During the first weeks of the theatrical run, Kubrick eliminated a two-minute scene at the end in which Ullman visits Wendy and Danny in the hospital…..” I hope this helps…..
I saw ‘The Shining’ a few years ago at the NFT in London and it had a few scenes near the end I hadn’t seen before. When Jack is chasing Wendy around the hotel she runs downstairs and discover all these cobwebby skeletons in a lounge or a dining room or something. She screams, keeps running. It didn’t have the ending described above.
By the way, I was at Pinewood when they were shooting EWS and saw the ‘very strange planet’ on the backlot there. Really strange to find a mockup of the West Village in the suburbs of London.
“Instead it’s 2-1/2 hours long and takes place on a very strange planet.”
How do either of these make it a bad film?
Also – regarding “The Shining” — many critics -and audiences – killed it because of Danny Lloyd talking with his finger and Shelly Duvall. King himself didn’t like the changes made to the story… he thought that even though it was a semi-effective horror film, it could have been more so with Kubrick’s visual sense. A knock on Kubrick over the years was with some of his casting choices – Rebecca DeMornay (from the miniseries) was how Wendy was envisioned by King; Ryan O’Neal? puleeze; and Cruise and Kidman had no chemistry in EWS – or was that how Kubrick wanted it? Kubrick’s a god because of his vision, not his casting choices. And, he didn’t discriminately nick any scenes from Hong King cinema, which is why there’s been no sniping in this post. How refreshing indeed!
“Cruise and Kidman had no chemistry in EWS – or was that how Kubrick wanted it?”
Did they ever have chemistry anywhere? I never saw Far and Away so I’m legitimately asking.
“A knock on Kubrick over the years was with some of his casting choices”
Yeah, and those guys who play the astronauts in 2001 are total robots! It’s like, the computer is practically the only one with any personality! Didn’t Kubrick realize that?
My reactions to Barry Lyndon have gone the opposite way as JD in that the first time I saw it, I was kind of bored but every time I watch it I like it more and more. The first thing that surprised me was how slyly/dryly humorous much of it was. I also hate Ryan O’Neal in general, but he’s not a liability in this film for me. He’s actually perfect in his vacancy and his efforts at being a real actor (and not quite pulling it off) dovetail nicely with the character’s efforts to be upper class and failing. There’s a phoniness and a discomfort barely concealed by an irrational self-confidence that works in a weird way.
I think it might be my favorite Kubrick though in a desert island situation I might still have to go with Strangelove.
thank you nadsat, i’m going to use you as my official source and win this bet.
and cj, i meant that kubrick cut more than just the end scene for the international print but he didn’t realter the american. so it doesn’t seem that cohesive a vision in terms of how it all played.
i heard about the skeleton stuff too..
i have a great king interview from “heavy metal” late 79 where king goes into detail about the film. he only mentions michael moriarty as his first choice.
king also says kubrick filmed STOP MOTION test footage of the topiary animals but it didn’t work. apparently dick smith also built a nicholson head that splits opens and worms fall out — a much better ending to my shabby mind…
when kubrick asked terry southern to write a scene for EWS southern came up with a more outrageous, kinda infantile scene but upon reflection, it would have better as a broad comedy.
I’ve actually read Traumnovelle, the very short novella upon which EWS is based. It bears about as much relationship to EWS as The Sentinel to 2001. The basic framework and theme of the story is there, but most of the film is pure Kubrick.
All snickering about lifestyles aside, I think they must have had some chemistry to be together for that long. I did not see Far and Away either, but Kidman has had good chemistry with other male co-stars – just not Cruise in this film. By the way – Eyes Wide Shut will be more highly regarded once critics realize it was not really supposed to be Kubrick’s “erotic” film, just as The Shining was pigeon-holed as Kubrick’s “horror” film. Also — and I’d like responses on this question — where is the cry for special edition DVDs of Kubrick’s works? I would like to see extra footage from The Shining, Full Metal Jacket, EWS added back into the released films, and then discussed?
nadsat, one more thing. was the version you saw the actual wide release opening day or a pre-wide release screening? one has to know.
I find Lyndon irresistible. It’s quietly hilarious and never boring. The way Steven Berkoff frowns in humiliation when he realizes his hand has been bested at cards… It looks like a spider crawling down his face. And Michael Hordern’s perfectly measured narration is a wicked delight.
Speaking of omniscient narration…
Last weekend I caught Little Children, which Vitali produced. His name is in the credits as “Oddly Familiar Man.” I couldn’t recall who that was in the movie. Anybody know?
Sorry Christian, can’t help you. Kubrick nerd I may be, but I’m not one for Kubrick minutia if it’s not on the screen. If Kubrick had no use for it, then neither do I. As far as I’m concerned it doesn’t exist. How nerdy is that?
It would be different if it was a studio imposed cut or something.
The Shining opened in just a few cities (NY/LA, maybe a couple of others) when I saw it on its first weekend, then it went wide a week or two later. That would be very unusual now for a big summer movie, but back in 1980 it was less uncommon.
By the way, on the question about DVD extras, my understanding is that Kubrick absolutely forbid any footage cut from his films to be seen in any context. (Which fit with his refusal to allow Fear and Desire to be screened anywhere.) One of the reasons he had his own people go theatre to theatre and make the Shining cuts was because they would then take the edited footage back to him in London. For now, at least, his heirs and Warners are scrupulously honoring his wishes, so none of whatever footage exists can be shown. Of course, this wouldn’t apply to the digitally altered footage from Eyes Wide Shut, which was changed after his death.
Christian, I’m weird with Kubrick. Maybe it’s because he was so hesitant to allow his process to be illuminated in the first place, I play along. I don’t want to see the man behind the curtain so the ins and outs of production decisions that he made don’t mean much to me. Even dramatic ones.
Of course, if he came back from the dead to record director’s commentaries for his DVDs, I’d run right out and buy them, but in a way I’m glad he never did one.
I’ve already had to turn in my heterosexual card because Cabaret is one of my favorite movies so turning in my nerd card because I’m not process obsessive about Kubrick wouldn’t be a major blow. It’s not laminated or anything.
“Nicholson goes bonkers right away” is an old and tired criticism.
Watching Jack Torrence wrestle with the Overlook’s influence on him would have made the movie a boring tragedy.
Instead, The Shining is like Hitchcock’s “bomb under the table.” The suspense builds in a linear trajectory because you know what’s going to happen.
For some, that’s boring. I find it terrifying.
I saw The Shining the Saturday of opening weekend in Kansas City and the movie definitely ended with the photo of Jack in the 20s or whenever. If audiences saw the hospital ending– which I never have– it was only in NY and LA or something.
Kubrick cut it even further at another point– the “non-theatrical” version (ie, university film societies, prisons, etc.) had another 15 or so minutes cut, losing the scene with Anne Jackson as the psychiatrist among other things. This was, not surprisingly, very badly received when I showed it in college and a large portion of the audience knew what was missing and complained….
Also, at the time I don’t think that people bitched that Kubrick had been unfaithful to a great author like Stephen King– I think they felt that Kubrick was slumming going from high art to a commercial scary movie, that’s probably more the reason why he won a Razzie.
They weren’t supposed to have good chemistry. They’re playing a couple that isn’t working — one that’s on autopilot with all the problems being suppressed.
then the ending doesn’t work either. like the film.
The Little Children narrator is Will Lyman.
http://www.whitethroat.com/
Which film are you talking about Christian, EWS or The Shining? They both work for me.
Christian, but ultimately he didn’t leave it in the American version…by the time I saw it, it was what it was…or am I misunderstanding you? That would be bloody typcial of me, but in my own defense I have a summer cold and I’m feeling a little funny in the head… you know… just a little… funny.
“A different lead actor would’ve served the story better.”
Who cares about serving one of Stephen King’s stories? You know, there’s movie versions of Christine and Firestarter and all kinds of things, if you care about that. There’s only one The Shining. Even though there have been two adaptations of the book…
“Enjoy being irked.”
Clearly Kubrick wanted to leave mysteries which weren’t solved and were open to interpretation. Another example: the “Delbert Grady” Jack meets clearly does not match the description he was given earlier in the movie– he seems to belong to the 20s (I forget when Grady is supposed to have lived but it wasn’t that long ago in the story), he’s not a caretaker, etc. We’re not meant to arrive at one neat explanation.
“”Eyes Wide Shut” is gorgeous crap”
Kubrick should have made, or at least set, EWS in 1969. It’s a witty little late 60s sex comedy-drama that should have been 90 minutes, briskly paced and starring a young Dustin Hoffman. Instead it’s 2-1/2 hours long and takes place on a very strange planet.
“A knock on Kubrick over the years was with some of his casting choices”
Yeah, and those guys who play the astronauts in 2001 are total robots! It’s like, the computer is practically the only one with any personality! Didn’t Kubrick realize that?
I saw The Shining at a fairly young age, having already seen a fair amount of late 70′s/early 80′s horror from Carpenter, Craven, and some of the other King adaptations. From my first viewing (on video) I thought it was the best, and scariest horror film, and my opinion hasn’t changed to this day, only The Exorcist coming close.
Maybe King was right, that Kubrick was attempting to make the be-all, end-all horror film with no previous experience in the genre. So what? Did he have any experience with war films before making Paths of Glory, now regarded as one of the best ever? Or science-fiction, before making 2001?
I laugh at the notion that The Shining wasn’t intially received well because of comparison to King’s source material. Yeah, right. Like any respectable critic would regard any of King’s work as literature, or anything other than fodder for a true creative genius like Kubrick to mold to his purposes. I feel Kubrick did a much weaker job with stronger source material–namely Lolita, and despite the screenplay (or at least one draft of it) being written by Nabokov, I thought it was way off the mark, with Sellers totally miscast in a part that should have been in the background, instead of pushed to the forefront with the rest of the humor in the film. The novel is certainly funny, but it’s a tragedy, and Kubrick failed to move me at all; James Mason gave the film what little heart it did have.
I’d also like to add my support to Eyes Wide Shut, a completely misunderstood (big surprise, we see this every time with Kubrick films when they’re released) that critics were sharpening their knives for the moment Cruise and Kidman were signed. Funny how people think they had no chemistry, yet it was their commitment to this project that likely sowed the seeds leading to the dissolution of their marriage. I thought Kidman’s two monologues were chillingly delivered and shot, and if Cruise didn’t give us a tour-de-force, he was certainly passable as a well-to-do slice of white bread who bites off more than he can chew in a discussion about gender roles with his wife, and endures a nightmarish experience, whether real or imagined, as a result. This one will be reevaluated in the future, like all the others, when people can look at it objectively instead of through a paparazzi-tinted prism.
Rich S.: “…most of the film is pure Kubrick.”
Don’t forget Frederic Raphael. According to the book he wrote about the film, Raphael was pretty much the sole screenwriter with Kubrick simply giving instructions and offering opinions on pages as he read them. I’m not saying this is entirely accurate, but it does seem like Raphael was a bit overlooked/snubbed when the movie came out. Remember when Spielberg took shots at him in the press because he was positive Kubrick didn’t think what Raphael said he thought about Schindler’s List? It was actually a pretty harmless statement. He just said Kubrick feltl SL was not the ultimate Holocaust movie because it focussed on saving lives, not killing. I also remember Tom Cruise making a typically misinformed statement along the lines of “I don’t even know who this guy is.” But you just spent two years acting in a movie he wrote.
“namely Lolita, and despite the screenplay (or at least one draft of it) being written by Nabokov”
Nabokov’s screenplay was not used at all. Kubrick and Calder Willingham wrote the script that was used.
Thanks for the clarification, Mgmax. It always bothered me that Nabokov could so poorly adapt his own masterpiece.
I don’t suppose that original draft is floating around anywhere, huh?
“This one will be reevaluated in the future, like all the others, when people can look at it objectively instead of through a paparazzi-tinted prism.”
It will also look better when it doesn’t look so weirdly off-key as a picture of life at the moment. It’s obvious that Kubrick was out of touch with his characters as people like that exist in 1999; if he’d made it in 1969, as I said before, he would have known something life during the sexual revolution but by 1999 he was an old grandpa puttering around his workshop telling people 40 years younger not to fuck up their marriages with sex outside of marriage. Not that there isn’t something to what Gramps is saying, but who of that age could relate to the party full of robed weirdos, or was shocked when the big secret of a very long, drawnout conversation was that a hooker had HIV? It just didn’t seem modern, the way he said it; maybe in 30 years none of that will matter and it can be appreciated in its own extremely stylized form.
By the way, those of you who love it– keep it in mind and then go watch Roger Corman’s film of The Masque of the Red Death. A lot of the things that, as I say, seem weirdly unmodern in it suddenly make more sense if you think he was basically making a semi-modern version of that medieval story– and of Corman’s film of it in particular.
“I don’t suppose that original draft is floating around anywhere, huh?”
Yes, actually I believe it was published in the 80s or so. For the record, Nabokov preferred theirs to his own, or so he said.
If Stan took too long with anything, it was “Eyes Wide Shut.” Dead on arrival.
“namely Lolita, and despite the screenplay (or at least one draft of it) being written by Nabokov”
Nabokov’s screenplay was not used at all. Kubrick and Calder Willingham wrote the script that was used.
“This one will be reevaluated in the future, like all the others, when people can look at it objectively instead of through a paparazzi-tinted prism.”
It will also look better when it doesn’t look so weirdly off-key as a picture of life at the moment. It’s obvious that Kubrick was out of touch with his characters as people like that exist in 1999; if he’d made it in 1969, as I said before, he would have known something life during the sexual revolution but by 1999 he was an old grandpa puttering around his workshop telling people 40 years younger not to fuck up their marriages with sex outside of marriage. Not that there isn’t something to what Gramps is saying, but who of that age could relate to the party full of robed weirdos, or was shocked when the big secret of a very long, drawnout conversation was that a hooker had HIV? It just didn’t seem modern, the way he said it; maybe in 30 years none of that will matter and it can be appreciated in its own extremely stylized form.
By the way, those of you who love it– keep it in mind and then go watch Roger Corman’s film of The Masque of the Red Death. A lot of the things that, as I say, seem weirdly unmodern in it suddenly make more sense if you think he was basically making a semi-modern version of that medieval story– and of Corman’s film of it in particular.
“I don’t suppose that original draft is floating around anywhere, huh?”
Yes, actually I believe it was published in the 80s or so. For the record, Nabokov preferred theirs to his own, or so he said.
I’m clearly too late to actually participate in this thread, but, for what it’s worth. . . I LOVED The Shining. On a cross-country trip, I even made my parents take me to The Timberline Lodge on Mt. Hood, just to see the place where the establishing exterior shots were taken. BTW, it’s quite rustic and much, much smaller in scale than the Overlook Hotel. On other Stephen King mystery-realted issues, my question for the masses: Did anyone else see the teaser trailer put out for George Romero’s The Stand back in the day? I remember seeing it attached to a preview screening of An American Werewolf In London. It seemed similar in tone to the paperback cover (blues and blacks) and was a tracking shot of a telephone-pole-lined desert road at dusk. As the camera dollied back, a pole came into the foreground, and only then did you realize that people were crucified to these things. “In the Air Tonight” was the backing track (okay, it seemed cool back in 1981) and the test audience went INSANE for it. And I have yet to run into another person who has either seen or heard of it. Anyone?
Gotta say– I normally disagree with Wells for the most part… but Barry Lyndon is one of my favorite movies of all time. Saw it as a teen on video and it has both moved and shaped me ever since. If there’s a film that shows critics that Kubrick isn’t “cold”… its this one.
The scene where he and Lady Lyndon first meet on the balcony…. the scene with the German war “widow”… the duel between Barry and Bullington at the end…
Christ, the movie is perfect. Too bad too many uptight critics got it so wrong at the time. I feel bad for the guy…
Wish he was alive to blast the pants off Hollywood one last time… (meaning, its pretty well known in the industry that EWS was not finished…)
SHINING: A film professor of mine at UCLA said that he say the original ending on opening day. He claims that friends of his went to a later screening that night and over discussions, found that they saw different endings. My Professor’s conclusion that the ending was edited from the early shows to the late shows.
I’d love to see all the stuff Kubrick cut out of Dr Strangelove, 2001, Shining. But as an extra- not edited back into the movies. That stuff is gone for a reason and would tweak the experience if returned.
EYES WIDE SHUT: I was fascinated by this when I saw it in 1999, but it’s too long. I don’t believe Kubrick would have kept it at 160 minutes when he died. I suspect he would have been editing until opening day- and further. DVD would have been ideal for him. As such, I can’t honestly consider EWS a true Kubrick film since it was unfinished at time of his death (the producers and others say that it was locked in. if they knew Kubrick’s habits, they wouldn’t have said that with any honesty).
BARRY LYNDON: Great film. Totally out of its time (1975), but a work of art and brilliant recreation of something Reynolds or Gainsborough would have created.
Just one more Kubrick insight as to deleted scenes and such. After 2001 was completed, Kubrick ordered all the models and sets destroyed. I think he even went so far as to have most of the blueprints destroyed as well. He didn’t want what had happened to Robbie the Robot and the C-57D from Forbidden Planet – i.e. reuse in other far inferior films – to happen to the Discovery or the Orion. When they made 2010, they literally had to remake the models from scratch, mostly using prints of the earlier film.
Though Kubrick loved to tinker, I suspect that he would have hated the thought of releasing deleted scenes. I sincerely feel he wanted the film that remained after the tinkering to be the definitive work.
Thanks, slothroplt, but my actual question was: Who was Leon Vitali’s “Oddly Familiar Man” in Little Children?
One more thing: does anybody else remember the original Kubrick Collection announcement only a few weeks before Kubrick’s death? It said all those films would include Kubrick commentary. I swear! And it was an official announcement. I remember one of my first thoughts upon learning of his death — after wondering if EWS was truly finished — was whether he had found time to record any commentaries yet. That really would have been mind-blowing. As a consollation, I wish Warner could convince surviving cast and crew to contribute commentary to future releases (ie. the HD DVD releases later this year), but they seem to think Kubrick would disapprove.
thanks all for THE SHINING info. i need dates. THE SHINING opened wide may 23 1980, but when did it open in new york/la? hard to believe thre’s so little info on this out there.
and i just don’t find THE SHINING scary. it’s got atmosphere surplus, but it just feels…stilted. i think the film is miscast minus the boy and the great scatman crothers. it doesn’t hold a candle to king’s book.
i’ve gone off on EWS numerous times here, but it should be clear to any kubrick fan that this film is not his. warner brothers looped actors, altered scenes and it’s clear that messers. cruise and kidman had a hand in the editing. mgmax is right about kubrick’s vision of modern life. i hear so many justifications for the phony stagebound feel of EWS that remind me of the defenses of hitchcock’s limp later works with their terrible process shots: but it’s intentional like a dream! spin, spin, spin…
kidman sucks in EWS — i’ve already laid out her awful getting high fake laughter scene as the worst. cruise is fine in the film, but then you have these ridiculous scenes with the shopkeeper’s horny daughter that come out of some place where satire has died. and nothing redeems the orgy scene with its victorian erotica played dead serious.
kubrick had a bad habit of hogging credit, and it’s revealing that his only oscar was for the utterly false special effects credit on 2001. ask douglas trumball how he feels about that credit. the focus on terry southern for STRANGELOVE upset kubrick and he never again had such a fruitful writing collaboration. to the detriment of his films. i love his work but if you watched EWS and did not know it was kubrick, i don’t believe you’d think it was a masterpiece.
but peter sellers is ab fab in LOLITA.
I saw Lolita before I read it and I like it a lot. Admittedly, it does a poor job of channeling the novel, but I think it stands on its own.
As for EWS, I like huge chunks of it well enough that I tend to overlook the things that don’t work so well. Mgmax is right that it often feels like a Grandpa’s Eye View of modern relationships and the masked orgy is just ridiculous.
Not all of Hitchcock’s later films are good, but Marnie has plenty of process shots and it’s very good. Sorry you consider enjoying it or Eyes Wide Shut ‘spin’ – I honestly do. They’re both cinematic in a way that come purely out of their directors’ worldviews and processes. I certainly think EWS is a better film than Lolita.
Christian,
Nice assertions, but they’re bullshit. The dialogue in EWS for the orgy was recorded on set. There’s a quote from Leon that was edited from the interview in which he described how it was all recorded live. There was no looping. Kubrick was known for his preference of NOT looping, but relying on live recording.
-JS
It’s strange how differently we all respond to things. I for one think the masked orgy is the best sequence in Eyes Wide Shut, not only because it’s more stylized than any other part of the movie (with its trademark Kubrick zooms and intense music), but because it captures the sense of mystery and fear that the rest of the movie tries and fails to capture. And if you think bizarre, ritualistic sex partties involving wealthy elites are ridiculous cj, do some research:
ie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggxiBWv4xYE
I think EWS is the cinematic equivalent of George W. Bush.
Some people look at it and see brilliance, are eager to defend it against any detractors, are convinced to their core that it works. And they tend to be pretty vocal about that opinion.
And then there’s the other side that says, “What the hell are you talking about? Are you outta your friggin’ mind???”
I’m in the latter category and I say that as someone who caught the first show on opening day. I’ve since seen it probably 10 or 12 times. Little bits of it work for me, here and there, but the parts that don’t work (the majority of the film) have nothing to do with the celebrity status of Tom and Nicole. I think the direction is good, but the story doesn’t hook me, the acting doesn’t convince me and there’s a disorganized, uncertain anxiety behind the whole thing that is completely at odds with Kubrick’s best work.
Thanks, slothroplt, but my actual question was: Who was Leon Vitali’s “Oddly Familiar Man” in Little Children?
Haven’t got time to read all y’all’s comments just now, but I’m sure I will. Just wanted to add that I love “Barry Lyndon,” and think Kubrick’s take on Thackeray is hallucinatory, unique and just plain right. Why NOT make a movie set in the 18th century by invoking the rythmns of the 18th century? It helps if you read the book (which I did 15 years after first seeing the movie.) I mean, it helps, but it probably won’t make you like the movie more, or hate it less. I get why some (many? most?) don’t dig it. I don’t care. I love it. Ryan O’Neal is so mis-cast that it almost works.
I also love “The Shining,” and yet the conventional wisdom seemed to be that Kubrick had somehow destroyed King’s novel. (Stanley Kauffman’s review of the film was particularly damning, and certainly had its points.) Anyway, then I read the book. The movie was better! The book might be King’s best, for all I know. It’s certainly better than the other three or four I’ve read. Which leads me to conclude, quite obviously, that Kubrick was a better filmaker than King is a writer.
“There was no looping. Kubrick was known for his preference of NOT looping, but relying on live recording.”
yes, but mr. kubrick DIED four months before the release of EWS. if you think there was no looping in any scene after that, you don’t know your film.
did kubrick also approve the digital deletions?
If you’re talking about the blocking of nudity with the digital figures, the word is Kubrick did approve. But, honestly, I don’t believe the word.
Stephen King has highs and lows as a writer — he was particularly hacky when he was writing drunk and high — but he’s better than he’s given credit for. Look at “Stand by Me,” “Misery,” “Shawshank” and parts of “The Shining.” Those are perfect examples of how well his strong material translates when handled by the right people.
In fact, he did approve them. And I know my film quite well.
If you stopped making unfounded assertions and did a little research, you’d find plenty of interviews from the time of its release. People like Leon and Jan Harlan explained that the digital fig leaves were Kubrick’s intention if the film received an NC-17, as opposed to having the scenes recut.
The picture wasn’t altered. Yes, things were completed. But Kubrick had planned and notated everything to the point where it was simply his instructions to follow.
“THE SHINING opened wide may 23 1980, but when did it open in new york/la? hard to believe thre’s so little info on this out there.”
Very simple, go to a public library, get the NY Times on microfilm for that period, look at the ads. I’m pretty sure it was a week or two earlier at the most.
Personally I think EWS is the cinematic equivalent of John Edwards– it’s got a really big house and good hair– but anyway, there’a a lot that’s interesting in EWS, but it’s a perfect example of a movie that the guy thought about so long that he was no longer sure what it was supposed to be. The first part of the movie is a lot like Lolita in that it’s about a guy who suddenly discovers that sex is everywhere, yet satisfaction eludes him. (One of the jokes in Lolita is that Humbert the pervert is the only one who’s really monogamous and pure in his devotion; he’s surrounded by folks having flings and orgies all around him, “We’re very broadminded,” “We do a lot of things with my excess energy,” which he’s too innocent to pick up on until it’s too late.) That’s the 1969 sex comedy which I wish he had made then– coming on the heels of Frederic Raphael’s other great script about marriage, Two For the Road.
The orgy stuff is just not as shocking or dark as he thinks it is. So people are fucking in funny costumes. Whoop-de-do. The problem is, sex itself is always ultimately banal in drama, unless it says something further about the people having it. Two movies that much better capture the heartlessness of sexual decadence Kubrick fails to– The Big Lebowski, the scene at Ben Gazzara’s place, with that uniquely Californian brand of heedless hedonism in the air, everyone is just beautiful meat laid out on the craft table. And Mona Lisa, with that great moment where the toff is screwing a whore in the ass and says in a posh voice, “Does it hurt? Well, it’s supposed to.” Yow, that tells you all you need to know about sex as a form of class dominance, doesn’t it?
I think another real problem is that the movie is sort of about class and yet, why wouldn’t Tom Cruise’s character be the sort of person the rich weirdos would want to add to the party? He’s obviously well off if not rich rich, he’s good looking and has a hot wife, it’s a movie in which someone in the top 5% of household income in America learns that a private sex club is only open to folks in the top 2%. Not exactly compelling drama, that.
and here’s the official proof from tom cruise and nicole kidman’s press statement after kubrick’s death:
“we did see the movie and it was completed except for final looping and mixing. we are thankful to have this experience with him.”
I like to think of Killer’s Kiss as the cinematic equivalent of Mike Gravel: nobody’s really heard of it, and, uh, there are mannequins.
“why wouldn’t Tom Cruise’s character be the sort of person the rich weirdos would want to add to the party? He’s obviously well off if not rich rich, he’s good looking and has a hot wife, it’s a movie in which someone in the top 5% of household income in America learns that a private sex club is only open to folks in the top 2%.”
To answer my own point, the obvious comment is that this DOES make sense culturally– in England. Kubrick set his story in a country he no longer knew, and projected the one he did onto it.
JD, Mgmax does a better job of explaining my problem with the orgy sequence than I did. It’s not that I don’t believe such a thing has ever happened, it’s that as portrayed it seemed like it was supposed to be sexy and shocking and it was neither. Maybe I was wanting it to be something it was never meant to be, but it didn’t feel like it.
Janet Maslin reviewed Shining in Times May 23.
I don’t think it was portrayed as something ‘sexy and shocking’, I think it was clearly meant to be weird and alienating.
I also don’t see how it’s a problem that the movie’s landscape more resembles England than New York. More precisely, it takes place in his head.
stephen king was bar none the greatest horror writer in america from 75-82. NIGHT SHIFT remains for me the scariest book ever written, even tho it’s a short story collection. it feels cohesive in its depiction of blue collar malaise and terror. when king was young and hungry, his stories burned with archetypal fury which he lost at around the time of the awful IT.
“Very simple, go to a public library, get the NY Times on microfilm for that period…”
microfilm? jeez. go fiche!
I really like IT. Better to say he lost it around the time of Gerald’s Game/ Rose Madder/ Insomnia.
I didn’t find it weird and alienating either, just a little goofy.
so here are the three HE subjects most likely to get over 100 comments:
1) george bush is a _____ (in honor of chuck n. reilly)
2) quentin tarantino
3) stanley kubrick
IT should have been king’s ultimate magnum opus –instead we get one great scene (the opening with the clown in the sewer) and an utterly ridiculous climax with the friends banging their female pal while they richochet around in some alternate universe….
King, like most writers of horror fiction, always did better with the short form than the long. It is much easier to maintain a specific mood for a short period of time than through a long form novel.
However, King’s novels more than most tend to run out of gas by the end. He goes into it in detail in Danse Macabre, but he claims to want to try to hit a home run, rather than settle for a solid triple. As a result, the end of some of his best works, such as It and The Stand, are truly awful.
In The Shining, the end is satisfactory, but King, as a young writer, telegraphs it way too early in the novel. I would agree that he is a fine practitioner of quality pulp, but really nothing more. But in his business, that’s good enough.
Hey, christian, we actually agreed on something. Now that’s gotta be a first.
i would argue that DIFFERENT SEASONS is his finest fiction work, perfectly straddling the line between reality and horror. the aging nazi in APT PUPIL is the single most realistic and un-king like character he’s ever written.
“I also don’t see how it’s a problem that the movie’s landscape more resembles England than New York.”
My point is, there are virtually no doors in America which are closed on account of class to a good-looking New York WASP doctor with an attractive wife and good manners who makes a lot of money. I suppose there’s some crusty board of some coop building on the upper west side that would sniff at him, but basically, he’s welcome anywhere in our society. (Especially in a sex club where they’d love to have attractive new members like them.)
Where in England it’s believable that you could be rich, handsome and well-mannered, yet because your grandfather wasn’t a toff and you work for a living, you will find doors barred to you. (Doctors not being nearly so high prestige a profession there.) Working from a book from the Hapsburg era, after all, Kubrick should have set it in England– or cast a Jew.
In addition to his short stories, I’ve always been partial to Pet Sematary. It’s an extended riff on The Monkey’s Paw, but that murderous little kid is awesome. And the ending, while you can see it coming up 6th Avenue, is still pretty great.
The following is an unpublished partial quote from the interview:
“And what he did, because we were working behind masks — it’s a very difficult balance to get when you’re the sound mixer, Eddie Tise — it meant we had to be totally clean shaven, we had to push the mask out a little bit so you didn’t get any loud rubbing sounds, and Stanley just insisted that Eddie got a clean track. Originally he thought we’d dub it, but he called me and he said, “There’s no way you’re ever gonna get the same kind of nuances you would get when we’re shooting. So I’m just gonna keep it exactly the way it is.”
Of course (to comment on my own post again)… he’d already made THE movie about the limits of social climbing in England, hadn’t he?
Mgmax, I still don’t see how those points you make, while valid, are relevant to the movie’s themes and goals.
mutinyco, i never claimed kubrick looped the orgy scene. i did claim there was looping done on the film after his death, which tom cruise and nicole kidman and others have confirmed. which makes your statement hopeful but incorrect.
now..let’s see if we can push this baby up to 200….
So what are the movie’s themes and goals, Jeffmcm?
That’s part of what I think is the confusion of the film– if it’s really a dream story, it doesn’t become that till a good hour into it. And I just don’t find much of what he “dreams,” then, all that interesting, compared to the naturalistic parts which intermittently work
Eyes Wide Shut is a 2001 in which, once the astronaut gets to the 19th century house run by the aliens, we’re shown aliens in long robes and rubber masks and expected to be wowed by this vision of what’s beyond our imagining.
and of course i would love to see the footage kubrick did shoot of the 2001 aliens — which trumbull confirms was shot. he also claimed he told kubrick the ending made no sense and it was pretty much thought up on the spot. he wasn’t happy about losing an oscar and work because kubrick was too greedy with that arrogant spfx credit.
Christian,
With all respect, you’re a pissant.
You’re acting as if the so-called looping acted as some major alteration to the picture. All movies have SOME looping done, and I have no doubt that Kubrick had already notated which shots were to be looped. I said the orgy wasn’t looped, a sequence often accused of being looped, and you replied with a quote from Cruise’s reps. I countered with a direct quote from Kubrick’s assistant who also acted in the scene. If you can find out exactly what lines were looped, please feel free to publish your information. Otherwise, the looping in question is unimortant.
But to contrast your quote from Cruise’s reps, Cruise was also quoted as threatening to personally kick the ass of anybody who touched the movie. And if you’d like to make some assertions, why not infer that Semel and Daley’s resignations soon after EWS opened had something to do with their refusal to take the film over and make it more commercial? They were responsible for Kubrick’s carte blanche contract, and they stood by it.
About this question of exclusion: Although I hate EWS, I do think it’s hysterical when Cruise is at the gate and they come up to him with a note and it’s basically, “Dear. Dr. Harford, we still don’t want you at our freaky-deaky sex party. Now fuck off.”
Hey, if I was hosting a party with babes and dildo-nose masks and shit, I wouldn’t want competition like Cruise horning in.
Another thing that has always fascinated me about Kubrick was his undeniable talent for photographing women, despite the fact that he clearly wasn’t comfortable with them in his movies. He’s much like Hitchcock in that respect. Sue Lyons on that blanket in Lolita is still an icon. Marisa Berenson, while intentionally vacuous, is absolutely stunning. Nicole Kidman has never looked more beautiful than she did in EWS. Even Jean Simmons in Spartacus stands out.
But, like Hitchcock, many of the women in Kubrick’s films are almost automatons. The most animated of all, Shelley Duvall, looks like absolute hell, almost from the first frame. She looked prettier in Popeye, for pete’s sake.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen this commented on anywhere else. Maybe there’s a master’s thesis in there somewhere.
Seriously, “pissant”?
Is name calling really necessary? Are we not men?
MGMax, I think EWS is a dream story from the moment Cruise leaves his apartment, which I’m pretty sure is closer to half an hour into the movie.
I said it with all respect.
I quite agree, Rich S., and always initially saw Duvall in “The Shining” as somewhat perverse casting on Kubrick’s part. Well, I mean, you pretty much wanted to chop Wendy up with an axe from scene 1, right? “Whatcha thinkin’, hon?”/”Penny for your thoughts.” And then later, maddeningly: “I think Danny should be taken to a doctor!” All whining. CHRIST, the whining.
Then, some years later, I took a wife myself.
[But, like Hitchcock, many of the women in Kubrick's films are almost automatons. The most animated of all, Shelley Duvall, looks like absolute hell, almost from the first frame. She looked prettier in Popeye, for pete's sake.
I don't think I've ever seen this commented on anywhere else. Maybe there's a master's thesis in there somewhere.
Posted by: Rich S. at June 1, 2007 12:40 PM]
I think Duvall is the best thing in The Shining. She sneaks some authenticity into a movie that’s all about theatricality.
“Nice assertions, but they’re bullshit.”
my only assertion was that the film was manhandled, including looping, by others besides kubrick after his death which you deny and then make the astounding claim that kubrick’s notes detailed every change — as if he knew he would be dead FOUR MONTHS before the film opened. and your insinuation is that cruise and kidman’s statement about the final looping and mixing remained to be done was a lie? why would they lie about looping and mixing?
but here’s a great piece by michael herr for vanity fair on kubrick where he talked to him two weeks before his death: “Then he called in extreme distress and said that he couldn’t possibly show me the movie in time for my deadline – there was looping to be done and the music wasn’t finished, lots of small technical fixes on color and sound; would I show work that wasn’t finished? He had to show it to Tom and Nicole because they had to sign nudity releases, and to Terry Semel and Bob Daly of Warner Bros., but he hated it that he had to. and I could hear it in his voice that he did.”
ergo, you are wrong and won’t admit it.
so with equal respect, piss on your own ant and put that fire out.
“Is name calling really necessary? Are we not men?”
we are DEVO.
Your assertions are nonsense. The picture was manhandled? By who? Every single person involved said the movie was completed according to Kubrick’s specifications. Of course, he didn’t want to show it 4 months out — he was a perfectionist. He was required to because of the actors’ nudity clauses. All of the tech fixes are things any movie goes through during finishing — color correction, final sound mix, etc. Nobody took it over. It was finished and overseen by Jan Harlan, Leon Vitali and his other trusted collaborators for many years.
And if you don’t think Kubrick had thorough notes and details overseeing every aspect of this picture through its marketing and release, then you don’t know a single thing about Kubrick. He had complete autonomy. Did you read the interview? During editing he’d break dialogue takes down word by word and cross references each by like 50 takes. Nothing got by him.
You’re a pissant because you’re searching the web for quotes to prove your point — that you’re not proving — while arguing with the person who wrote and conducted the interview which this thread is based on.
Now, I’m leaving this conversation out of decorum and professionalism.
Feel free to argue with yourself.
I saw Lolita before I read it and I like it a lot. Admittedly, it does a poor job of channeling the novel, but I think it stands on its own.
As for EWS, I like huge chunks of it well enough that I tend to overlook the things that don’t work so well. Mgmax is right that it often feels like a Grandpa’s Eye View of modern relationships and the masked orgy is just ridiculous.
“I don’t think I’ve ever seen this commented on anywhere else. Maybe there’s a master’s thesis in there somewhere”
I remember Ms. Magazine dinging Kubrick for that after Barry Lyndon came out. Much like my sarcastic astronauts-are-like-robots comment above, they seemed to think this was a failure on SK’s part rather than an aspect of a worldview which consistently took on subjects having to do with man’s propensity toward violence, in which women are prizes, rape victims, or decorative objects, but rarely central to the real issue of monkeys and their rivalry and violence toward each other.
That is in fact why I had high hopes for Eyes Wide Shut taking things in a new direction… which perhaps it does for one scene, Kidman’s confession.
“MGMax, I think EWS is a dream story from the moment Cruise leaves his apartment, which I’m pretty sure is closer to half an hour into the movie.”
Well, okay, maybe, but it’s also got a big bee in its bonnet about class issues– a purely dream story would not have that interminable speech by Sydney Pollack about how sometimes hookers die and that’s just… the way… things are. That’s why I think Kubrick never decided what the hell it was he was making– compare it to Belle de Jour as another example of an erotic “dream story” which mixes reality and fantasy in an internally coherent manner.
Gennlmen, gennlmen, pleeze:
As the Buddha said: “In the end, what is IT?” And what he meant by that is– ah, well, I guess it’s arguable what he MEANT, but what I take from his words is that no argument about one of Kubrick’s lesser films should continue beyond the time of the sun reaching the lesser horizon over the Hudson River on June the First. We have reached that time. It’s not me saying this, mind you. It’s the Buddha.
“You’re a pissant because you’re searching the web for quotes to prove your point — that you’re not proving”
except that i did. i disproved your inaccuracy on no looping done after kubrick’s death. and there is no way of knowing if the orgy mask scenes were re-looped after his death since you can offer no proof besides technicians on the set that they weren’t. there was in fact a major sound glitch in the scene where cruise exits the elevator after the chris issak scene that was fixed for the video version of the film. was that not already in kubrick’s notes?
“Every single person involved said the movie was completed according to Kubrick’s specifications.”
except for tom cruise and nicole kidman who looped dialogue without a director to guide them
– unless their sessions were based on those copious notes that most likely kubrick would have continued to alter four months later.
and do you think warner brothers would have announced after his death, sorry, the film isn’t yet properly edited — while it clearly wasn’t?
and if the EWS “final cut” he showed to semel etc is indeed kubrick’s absolute never-to-be-touched again version, then it’s a worse mess.
appreciate your interview but your attitude sucks.
or to quote robert shaw from jaws, “it tells me you college boys can’t admit when you’re wrong.”
Sound glitch at the end of Baby Did A Bad Bad Thing? It’s called a reel change! Moron! The reel changed right then. I know exactly what you’re talking about. You don’t see reel changes on video.
And Leon Vitali was not some technician on the set that wasn’t. He was Kubrick’s personal assistant for 20 years! Not picture to picture. He ran his office. He played Red Cloak in the orgy! He’s the man who’s overseen all of the video transfers and new prints of his pictures.
So yes, I would trust his recollection over your internet surfing any day of the week.
Christian, your entire argument stems from your belief that the movie is flawed; no amount of arguing is going to change my and others’ opinion that the flaws are minor compared with its strong points, and no arguing the other way is going to convince you otherwise.
So, agree to disagree, I suggest.
“And in the end? The love you take is equal to the love… you make.” Words of wisdom, hmmmm??? Today is the 40th anniversary of the release of “Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band.” That’s right, kids: Today was the birth of “The Sum-wat of Love.” And, while I realize that my quote is from “Abbey Road,” a far better platter, may we all take a few steps back and … oh, fuck it. Write yourselves to death about Kubrick. He’d have wanted it that way. In thew end, he was sort of dead inside, no? Yeah. Also? I’m sure you deserve it. Get real or get busy. That’s what Lennon said.
I’d love to ttuuurrrnnn yoouuu oonnnnn!
“Christian, your entire argument stems from your belief that the movie is flawed”
no, it stems from the fact that EWS has the worst editing of any kubrick film. the man died four months before its release and he clearly would have made further cuts based on his history of doing so as others have pointed out. i’m not the only one who has leveled this charge by the way. but i’m sure those others were pissants too.
but i don’t think further cuts nor looping would alter what to me is a fundamentally flawed work.
oh shit, they’re releasing a 40th anniversary disc today of SPLHCB too!
must buy get high then fly.
“THE SHINING opened wide may 23 1980, but when did it open in new york/la? hard to believe thre’s so little info on this out there.”
Very simple, go to a public library, get the NY Times on microfilm for that period, look at the ads. I’m pretty sure it was a week or two earlier at the most.
Personally I think EWS is the cinematic equivalent of John Edwards– it’s got a really big house and good hair– but anyway, there’a a lot that’s interesting in EWS, but it’s a perfect example of a movie that the guy thought about so long that he was no longer sure what it was supposed to be. The first part of the movie is a lot like Lolita in that it’s about a guy who suddenly discovers that sex is everywhere, yet satisfaction eludes him. (One of the jokes in Lolita is that Humbert the pervert is the only one who’s really monogamous and pure in his devotion; he’s surrounded by folks having flings and orgies all around him, “We’re very broadminded,” “We do a lot of things with my excess energy,” which he’s too innocent to pick up on until it’s too late.) That’s the 1969 sex comedy which I wish he had made then– coming on the heels of Frederic Raphael’s other great script about marriage, Two For the Road.
The orgy stuff is just not as shocking or dark as he thinks it is. So people are fucking in funny costumes. Whoop-de-do. The problem is, sex itself is always ultimately banal in drama, unless it says something further about the people having it. Two movies that much better capture the heartlessness of sexual decadence Kubrick fails to– The Big Lebowski, the scene at Ben Gazzara’s place, with that uniquely Californian brand of heedless hedonism in the air, everyone is just beautiful meat laid out on the craft table. And Mona Lisa, with that great moment where the toff is screwing a whore in the ass and says in a posh voice, “Does it hurt? Well, it’s supposed to.” Yow, that tells you all you need to know about sex as a form of class dominance, doesn’t it?
I think another real problem is that the movie is sort of about class and yet, why wouldn’t Tom Cruise’s character be the sort of person the rich weirdos would want to add to the party? He’s obviously well off if not rich rich, he’s good looking and has a hot wife, it’s a movie in which someone in the top 5% of household income in America learns that a private sex club is only open to folks in the top 2%. Not exactly compelling drama, that.
“why wouldn’t Tom Cruise’s character be the sort of person the rich weirdos would want to add to the party? He’s obviously well off if not rich rich, he’s good looking and has a hot wife, it’s a movie in which someone in the top 5% of household income in America learns that a private sex club is only open to folks in the top 2%.”
To answer my own point, the obvious comment is that this DOES make sense culturally– in England. Kubrick set his story in a country he no longer knew, and projected the one he did onto it.
JD, Mgmax does a better job of explaining my problem with the orgy sequence than I did. It’s not that I don’t believe such a thing has ever happened, it’s that as portrayed it seemed like it was supposed to be sexy and shocking and it was neither. Maybe I was wanting it to be something it was never meant to be, but it didn’t feel like it.
Christian:
Ibid.
I didn’t find it weird and alienating either, just a little goofy.
First, it’s worth noting that this string is 137 comments strong and virtually all of them (a few Sergeant Peppers aside) are on point and seriously engaged discussions of film. That has to be some kind of record around these parts.
On the EWS debate, at the risk of being rational, isn’t it likely that the truth is between the two extremes? The version Kubrick showed Warners was probably fundamentally finished. Given Kubrick’s track record, though, it’s very likely that he would have continued to tinker with the film until it was ripped from his hands for the theatrical release (and maybe afterward). And although I have the highest respect for Leon Vitali and the other Kubrick heirs, and I’m positive every step they took was in keeping with their honest belief they were fulfililng his plans, it’s simply the case that none of them were Stanley Kubrick. As someone noted above, Kubrick’s entire method involved constant experimentation and adjustment, and even at the time of his death, he wouldn’t have known what ideas might have occurred to him in the next few months.
However, there’s no reason at all to think this would have involved any sweeping reconception or re-editing of the film. So while anyone who wants EWS to be the absolutely final vision of Kubrick in every way is out of luck, anyone who feels the film is generally misconceived and badly edietd would never be a fan of the film in any case.
One other point: I disagree with the person above who mentioned Schnitzler’s Traumnovelle. I think if you look at the Schnitzler work, you’ll see that Kubrick and Raphael (and by the way, Raphael’s self-serving memoir aside, there’s no doubt that the central creative force in any Kubrick movie was Kubrick) were quite scrupulous about following the overall structure and pattern of incident in the original. That’s exactly why many of the episodes and characters feel forced and overly stylized, because they’re barely updated versions of scenes written for a different era. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, and certainly wasn’t an accident, but it accounts for that oddly displaced feeling that makes people uncomfortable with the film. (Deliberate time displacement, of course, also comes up in 2001 and The Shining.)
“I also don’t see how it’s a problem that the movie’s landscape more resembles England than New York.”
My point is, there are virtually no doors in America which are closed on account of class to a good-looking New York WASP doctor with an attractive wife and good manners who makes a lot of money. I suppose there’s some crusty board of some coop building on the upper west side that would sniff at him, but basically, he’s welcome anywhere in our society. (Especially in a sex club where they’d love to have attractive new members like them.)
Where in England it’s believable that you could be rich, handsome and well-mannered, yet because your grandfather wasn’t a toff and you work for a living, you will find doors barred to you. (Doctors not being nearly so high prestige a profession there.) Working from a book from the Hapsburg era, after all, Kubrick should have set it in England– or cast a Jew.
“The version Kubrick showed Warners was probably fundamentally finished. Given Kubrick’s track record, though, it’s very likely that he would have continued to tinker with the film until it was ripped from his hands for the theatrical release (and maybe afterward).”
Exactly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/listenagain/monday/
That’s in case anyone wants to listen to Dream Story being read by Paul Rhys; it happens to be on BBC7 this week and next.
Of course (to comment on my own post again)… he’d already made THE movie about the limits of social climbing in England, hadn’t he?
In honor of the long discussion ….
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2EwgZCmiHI
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUZ6yzv2SB0
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBRq1S_ckDI
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I9L_vv0vR4
Sure, everybody’s seen it. But fuck it, it’s cool.
So what are the movie’s themes and goals, Jeffmcm?
That’s part of what I think is the confusion of the film– if it’s really a dream story, it doesn’t become that till a good hour into it. And I just don’t find much of what he “dreams,” then, all that interesting, compared to the naturalistic parts which intermittently work
Eyes Wide Shut is a 2001 in which, once the astronaut gets to the 19th century house run by the aliens, we’re shown aliens in long robes and rubber masks and expected to be wowed by this vision of what’s beyond our imagining.
It’s all that asshole Kubrick’s fault. Fucker shouldn’t have died.
“I don’t think I’ve ever seen this commented on anywhere else. Maybe there’s a master’s thesis in there somewhere”
I remember Ms. Magazine dinging Kubrick for that after Barry Lyndon came out. Much like my sarcastic astronauts-are-like-robots comment above, they seemed to think this was a failure on SK’s part rather than an aspect of a worldview which consistently took on subjects having to do with man’s propensity toward violence, in which women are prizes, rape victims, or decorative objects, but rarely central to the real issue of monkeys and their rivalry and violence toward each other.
That is in fact why I had high hopes for Eyes Wide Shut taking things in a new direction… which perhaps it does for one scene, Kidman’s confession.
“MGMax, I think EWS is a dream story from the moment Cruise leaves his apartment, which I’m pretty sure is closer to half an hour into the movie.”
Well, okay, maybe, but it’s also got a big bee in its bonnet about class issues– a purely dream story would not have that interminable speech by Sydney Pollack about how sometimes hookers die and that’s just… the way… things are. That’s why I think Kubrick never decided what the hell it was he was making– compare it to Belle de Jour as another example of an erotic “dream story” which mixes reality and fantasy in an internally coherent manner.
the best part is scatman crothers weeping for joy to be there.
“The version Kubrick showed Warners was probably fundamentally finished. Given Kubrick’s track record, though, it’s very likely that he would have continued to tinker with the film until it was ripped from his hands for the theatrical release (and maybe afterward).”
Exactly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/listenagain/monday/
That’s in case anyone wants to listen to Dream Story being read by Paul Rhys; it happens to be on BBC7 this week and next.
The best part is where David Staebler finally gets his audience with Lewis, and he says: “Jason said if Lewis knows– ”
“Right there, my boy, is an accurate summarization,” interrupts Lewis. “‘Jason says…’ and ‘Lewis knows.’”
Oh wait, wrong movie.
There was a rather interesting urban legend about EWS for awhile- the shoot was as long as it was because Kubrick was trying to somehow “Deprogram” Cruise…
And it killed him! Bummer.
It’s all about the costume shop. That’s all I’m going to say. That’s all I’m… permitted to say.
I think it was Ridley Scott who said at one time that it was the most beautiful film ever made. There is no doubt that it tries the patience.
But, Lawrence of Arabia is much the same, very testing of the patience.
The first time I saw BL I was about 15. Until then I never knew that film could be this engulfing and aesthetic. It is a remarkable film.
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