comment #1

mpneeb says ...

And WTF is THE DUCHESS doing there? I don't care that they're technicals...

Could the Academy really have found nothing better than THE READER to oust TDK?

The age of the Academy is showing.

comment #2

cinefan says ...

I'm really unhappy that Kate Winslet wasn't nominated for Revolutionary Road. I haven't seen The Reader but she was miraculous in Road and I feel that she very much helped strengthen DiCaprio's performance. On the other hand, I'm very happy that Michael Shannon got a nod.

comment #3

corey3rd says ...

Did anyone else get a "wtf" from Variety talking about how they work the nomination process based on first slots? This explains why everything always seems messed up - the 2-5 slots are pretty much worthless. They ought to just call your 4 & 5 picks as "The Net Points"

http://www.variety.com/awardcentral_article/VR1117998897.html?nav=news&categoryid=1982&cs=1

comment #4

JChasse says ...

No Bruce Springsteen nom for "The Wrestler" or for Clint's song that closes "Gran Torino"... usually there's five nominees in this category, right? Anybody know how they decide to only nominate three?

comment #5

alan says ...

I thought you'd be elated about Richard Jenkins, Melissa Leo, and Michael Shannon all beating the odds to get nominated. But I shouldn't be surprised that you started out by grouching about what didn't please you.

Also, Winslet's official nomination was for The Reader, not Rev. Road.

comment #6

Aris P says ...

More predictable please. What a joke.

comment #7

cinecatastrophe says ...

My main surprise was no nominations for Waltz with Bashir.

comment #8

theultimatebiu says ...

COPY AND PAST ***
The Dark Knight not getting a nod is hardly surprising...I still think it gets very messy towards the last 40 minutes and it really is built of Joker's performance. Everyone else is decent including the script, but it got a nod for cinematography and Heath so I think it is getting appreciated for the best it had to offer.**

Also, RDJ for Tropic Thunder is great but I wonder if he was a actual black person would he have gotten nominated?? Or did he get nominated for Lazarus??
INTRIGUE!!!

comment #9

Arran says ...

"My main surprise was no nominations for Waltz with Bashir."

Aside from Best Foreign Language Film, you mean?

Downey got nominated but Springsteen didn't. I have mixed emotions.

All in all, the usual mixed bag of "expected that"s and "WHAT THE FUCK"s.

comment #10

lipranzer says ...

WALTZ WITH BASHIR was nominated for best foreign language film. I hope it wins over THE CLASS (which I liked, but thought BASHIR was a better movie).

I'm very happy for Richard Jenkins, Mickey Rourke, Heath Ledger, and Marisa Tomei getting nominated, and like you, upset over the strong showing of BENJAMIN BUTTON, along with the strong showing of DOUBT (only Viola Davis deserved to be nominated), and the snubbing of Sally Hawkins and Kristin Scott Thomas in favor of Angelina Jolie and Meryl Streep.

comment #11

Dan Revill says ...

Um Best Foreign Language Film doesn't count anymore cinecatastrophe?

Kate should have been nominated for Revolutionary Road in lead actress. I still hope she wins, but really, she should have been a double nominee this year.

comment #12

NDH says ...

I think I'm one of the few people who thought Winslet was better in THE READER than in REVOLUTIONARY ROAD, so I'm happy to see that surprise. Also glad for Richard Jenkins and the screenplay nom for IN BRUGES. But where the hell is THE DARK KNIGHT love? Not even a nom for Nolan! And what about Sally Hawkins? Disgraceful! Underwhelming nominations make for an underwhelming Oscars.

comment #13

Krazy Eyes says ...

It's probably good news for Winslet that she only got a single Best Actress nom. Now she can collect votes from both those who liked her in THE READER as well as those who thought she was snubbed for RR without the danger of splitting the votes between the two performances.

comment #14

lonniechung says ...

Kind of a mixed bag, blah year. It does leave a little intrigue in the major categories; there are no clear front-runners for the acting awards. Rourke and Penn will split a lot of votes, so maybe Jenkins or Langella could slip in.

Speaking of Langella, what is it with Frost/Nixon? Was it nominated on pedigree alone, because the actual movie is a stiff. I guess I don't have too many complaints otherwise. I would have nominated Kate and Leo for Rev Road, and I am a little surprised that TDK didn't land a best picture nom (it was good enough), but there are no glaring errors.

comment #15

Rich S. says ...

I guess TDK wasn't obviously the greatest movie in the history of the universe paradigm changing heal the sick movie the fanboys thought.

And Entertainment Weekly spent all that time and money on the Heath Ledger cover story, too. Tsk, tsk.

(Though Ledger was great and will likely win the Kevin Kline/Sean Connery/Martin Landau/Marisa Tomei memorial "the performance was excellent but it was in one of THOSE movies" award.)

comment #16

scooterzz says ...

fwit: wish there had been a little more love for 'rev road'...found it poignant that ledger's nom was announced on the anniversary of his death....
otherwise, kinda ho-hum....

comment #17

K. Bowen says ...

TDK doesn't heal the sick. But it was the No. 2 film on Poland's compilation of Top 10 lists. So it wasn't just fanboys. And it would have given the public a rooting interest. And it was the only realistic potential nominee in my top ten list. This is the first year that there is not a nominee in my top ten list. So now I really don't care about the Best Picture race. And my apathy will be mirrored by the public at large.

For the people who complain about the last 20-40 minutes of The Dark Knight, did you all bother watching the first two hours? And the very end is brilliant. I would never argue that it's a perfect film. But it's pretty damn frikin' good for most of its run time.

The Academy was given a gift - a huge commercial success that was also a huge critical success - and they turned it down.

comment #18

p.Vice says ...

Wow, the Razzies really got it right for once. Anyone know when the Oscar nominations are announced?

comment #19

MindlessObamaton says ...

I just saw this list. NO DARK KNIGHT? WTF? Love Jenkins and Leo nods. Michelle Williams got screwed. THE READER, really? And, finally, it;s ironic but SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE, an okay film that has been totally overblown, is actually the best film of the 5 nominated, so it deserves to win. Insanely boring pics. No Bruce = suckage and I only care to watch the Actor race and see Rourke take it. RIP Heath.

comment #20

ZayTonday says ...

I agree with Wells on Pitt's nom. He's a good actor, but Benjamin Button is a completely passive character.

And WTF @ no TDK?

comment #21

MikeSchaeferSF says ...

Wow, never underestimate the power of a Holocaust movie. Reader is seriously creepy and has had no critical consensus behind it as far as I could see. For it to be in there instead of DK or even Rev Road is ridiculous, as is nominating Winslet for that role and not RR.

comment #22

Gnome Sayin says ...

Isn't this how it always goes, though? Fincher gets seriously (and as time passes, gallingly) snubbed for a richly deserving film in 2007, and then they glom onto the big obvious sentimental pap the next year. Button does have its merits, mostly technical, but this is another exercise in rote predictability and playing it safe. Nolan just needs to make the third Batman flick his version of 'Gump', though hopefully he has better things to worry about than the Academy. And yes, I'm firmly in the TDK corner.

comment #23

cinecatastrophe says ...

re: Waltz with Bashir - my bad - the list on IMDB didn't use the english title.

comment #24

MikeSchaeferSF says ...

Holy s**t -- they're giving Jerry Lewis the Hersholt award!!

comment #25

Howlingman says ...

I think the "Star Trek Movie Rule" can also be applied to David Fincher films.

comment #26

Rich S. says ...

I think perhaps the best thing that can come out of this is that a lot of the fanboys will stop paying attention to the Oscars and attributing to them any kind of indication of a film's quality.

I used to be an Oscar junkie, but then Melvyn Douglas (who, yes, died before the ceremony) beat out Robert Duvall's iconic performance in Apocalypse Now, and I haven't really cared since. It's an interesting enough diversion, but no more. The fact that the Academy Awards support about 300 blogs astounds me.

Kubrick never won one (for directing). Hitchcock never won one. Hawks never won one. Welles never won one. So, honestly, why does anybody care?

comment #27

Howlingman says ...

Amen, Rich S.

comment #28

DavidF says ...

I wonder if this is a record for GG winners not even getting nominated - Hawkins, Farrell etc.

Even Springsteen is a shock given that they only nominated 3 songs. IF they want to boost their ratings (at least in the USA) I can't help but think Bruce and Clint singing might do better than the Bollywood stuff (Good as it is!).

I'm very happy about some of the noms - including Jenkins and Leo - but, as always, some of the stuff they did is just messed up.

comment #29

corey3rd says ...

does this mean that only 3 songs received first choices?

comment #30

iamwhoiam says ...

Could not agree more about Pitt. This is a joke. But other than that, i'm pretty happy. No TDK nonsense and a spectacular nomination for Robert Downy Jr.

comment #31

iamwhoiam says ...

Downey, of course.

comment #32

D.Z. says ...

"Whoa, wait a minute, whoa...Brad Pitt has been nominated for Best Actor for playing a passive sponge man with two and a half expressions? This is a performance abour makeup and CG. Button is very worthy film in some respects, but this is comic relief. This is ridiculous."

Probably, but I guess they're hoping they'll get the same ratings as when Depp got nominated for Pirates. Too bad his 15 minutes is ticking with Inglorious Bastards. [I really can't wait to have them say "Oscar-nominated" for the trailer for that one!] But I knew Bashir wouldn't make "Best Animated Film", due to the "controversy" over rotoscoping. [That, and the Academy can't bear to give an award to a cartoon which is rated R.]

biu: Is Tropic Thunder the first comedy in which an actor got nominated? And yeah, if you're going to pick RDJ, why not just give him the goods for Iron Man?

As for TDK getting shafted, I didn't think it was the best, but that it was probably more deserving than The Departed. I imagine it's the "comic book ghetto" origin which kept it from making the list. LOTR at least was based on a series of novels, thus making it "legit".

Frost/Nixon sounds like a lazy choice, though-more like an excuse to make up for "All the President's Men" not getting Best Picture than anything else.

MikeSchaefer: "Reader is seriously creepy and has had no critical consensus behind it as far as I could see. For it to be in there instead of DK or even Rev Road is ridiculous, as is nominating Winslet for that role and not RR. "

Too bad it won't save Harvey's company.

comment #33

vp19 says ...

TDK doesn't heal the sick. But it was the No. 2 film on Poland's compilation of Top 10 lists. So it wasn't just fanboys. And it would have given the public a rooting interest. And it was the only realistic potential nominee in my top ten list. This is the first year that there is not a nominee in my top ten list. So now I really don't care about the Best Picture race. And my apathy will be mirrored by the public at large.

Given that the moviegoing audience today is largely made up of teens and twentysomethings who jam multiplexes for noisy, special effects-laden comic book adaptations on opening weekends and not the general public, no great loss.

comment #34

JapAdapters says ...

The idea that people think TDK is an Oscar worthy movie continues to astound me. It's good for what it is, but, IMO, has serious problems that keep it from being considered a truly great movie.

It's bad enough the Oscars have become a popularity contest, but when the discourse about movies gets to that level ... gack!

comment #35

televisiontears says ...

I don't think "serious problems" have ever been a handicap for the Academy. I also don't think the Academy exclusively chooses "truly great movies".

I read somewhere that Ledger would often do his own Joker makeup, so shouldn't he get a nom for that? I'm kidding, of course.

Man, I care less and less about the Oscars each year. I didn't even know the noms were being announced today.

comment #36

D.Z. says ...

vp: Since when do the nominees appeal to the general public any more than TDK? And the idea that AMPAS is attempting to avoid the attention of 20-somethings carries very little weight in light of the Pitt and Rourke nominations.

Jap: "It's good for what it is, but, IMO, has serious problems that keep it from being considered a truly great movie."

The same can be said about Titanic and ROTK.

comment #37

smiley says ...

The only two best pictures pics the Academy has gotten right were Departed and No Country for Old Men.

comment #38

D.Z. says ...

smiley: Actually, Goodfellas still should have won.

comment #39

smiley says ...

Yes, it should have. But The Departed was still deserving.

comment #40

Steve Guttenberg says ...

look for surprise milk wins in either best picture or best actor, the gays will all vote for it. I hope robert downey jr. wins best supporting actor but it'll be an awkward speech for anyone in the best supporting actor field who's not heath ledger.

comment #41

Edward Havens says ...

I guess DZ is unaware this is Pitt's second nod, having been Oscar-nominated in 1995 for 12 Monkeys.

What we all need to remember is that the Oscars, like the Globes, the Golden Satellites, the NBR Awards and every other group that gives awards away, is just the opinion of one group of people at that moment in history. The Dark Knight not being nominated for Best Picture isn't going to make it any worse a movie to the tens of millions who truly love it. It simple means this one group of people didn't go for it the way they did. Nothing more, nothing less.

comment #42

Doug says ...

Happy to see the "In Bruges" screenplay nomination. I tried to get Jeff to include it in his Oscar balloon, but he preferred "How To Lose Friends and Alienate People."

Shocked at "The Dark Knight" snubs. I guess the WGA, the DGA, the PGA and the millions of people who saw it multiple times are all wrong.

comment #43

TVMCCA says ...

JChasse wrote:
No Bruce Springsteen nom for "The Wrestler" or for Clint's song that closes "Gran Torino"... usually there's five nominees in this category, right? Anybody know how they decide to only nominate three?

Preuming that the Academy's song branch wanted colorful and upbeat over thoughtful end-credit summarizing.

comment #44

Renfield says ...

Frankly, who the hell cares about what "The Academy" thinks is the best _____ anymore?

They've shot themselves in the foot so many times it's amazing to me that anyone takes them seriously.

I've got my opinion of what the best films of the year were and that's all I, or anyone, should really need.

comment #45

BurmaShave says ...

Went to the convenience store downstairs a few hours ago, Dancing in the Dark was playing on the radio. Bruce doesn't really need the fucking Oscars, but it's still a shame. Probably the best song written for a film since Things Have Changed.

comment #46

berg says ...

Welles won an Oscar for writing Kane and Springsteen took home an Oscar in 94 for Streets of Philadelphia ...

comment #47

DarthCorleone says ...

It would rock if In Bruges won. And based on that list of five, I think it might have an outside shot.

comment #48

Rich S. says ...

Sorry, berg, you're right. Like Kubrick I should have said he never won for direction.

comment #49

Jonah says ...

Another doozy from DZ:
"Probably, but I guess they're hoping they'll get the same ratings as when Depp got nominated for Pirates. Too bad his (Pitt's)15 minutes is ticking with Inglorious Bastards. [I really can't wait to have them say "Oscar-nominated" for the trailer for that one!]"

Fifteen minutes? Try over fifteen years, bub. Starting with Thelma and Louise, and extending to Buttons. He's been one of the highest paid actors for over a decade, twice Oscar Nominated, several box office blockbusters, etc...

The fifteen minutes of fame theory does not apply to him.

But I can't wait to hear you defend the idiocy of your statement.

comment #50

Krillian says ...

I would be okay with Dark Knight not getting a Best Picture nod if the other five were worthy, but The Reader is a three-star movie with a four-star performance from Kate Winslet. And Frost/Nixon is not that good either.

comment #51

/3rtfu11 says ...

Brad Pitt is the male Julia Roberts. I like Pitt but dislike Julia Roberts.

comment #52

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

"It's good for what it is, but, IMO, has serious problems that keep it from being considered a truly great movie."

And these "serious" problems are...??

comment #53

smiley says ...

CitizenKaned "And these "serious" problems are...??"

Exactly. Where are these flaws I keep hearing about?

comment #54

JapAdapters says ...

The courtroom scene where a guy pulls a gun on Dent and the gun misfires (the most comic book, and I mean 1950s comic book, scene in a comic movie I've seen), the preposterous boat scene (I'd like to hear someone defend this scene), and the ending all come to mind. Personally, when people say this movie transcended comic book movies, I don't know what they could possibly mean. It's a damned good comic movie, but if there are scenes like the above in a serious crime movie, I'm calling that movie on it's lazy writing. TDK was a really good comic movie, IMO, that's it.

When people are saying TDK should win because Titanic and ROTK did then we have a problem. Hey, George Bush was just President for 8 years, let's just lower the bar!

comment #55

JapAdapters says ...

And, btw, the only time I get mad at the Academy Awards (or did get mad, who cares now?) is when a truly great movie gets robbed, ala LA Confidential. Otherwise, whatever.

comment #56

Ray says ...

First of all, kudos to Jeff for telling it exactly like it is. Honesty and condor like that bring me back to the site every single day.

The Pitt nomination is a complete joke. Almost half of the performance didn't even feature Pitt onscreen, but rather his computer generated double. And whenever Pitt WAS onscreen, he spent the entire time looking pensively into the distance like he was shitting in his pants.

THE WRESTLER being shut out of Best Picture, Best Direction, and Best Song are choices that will haunt this Oscar campaign in years to come.

I'm also shocked and saddened that LET THE RIGHT ONE IN did not show up on Best Foreign Language Film.

And to all the fanboys out there, THE DARK KNIGHT did not deserve to be nominated for BP. There were better crafted and more resonant films in 2008 than that one.

comment #57

K. Bowen says ...

By "fanboys" do you mean "film critics?" The Dark Knight was one of the best reviewed films of the year.

comment #58

D.Z. says ...

Steve: "look for surprise milk wins in either best picture or best actor, the gays will all vote for it."

If it wins in those categories, it'll be due to the hetero AMPAS members trying to pretend they're not homophobes for voting against BBM.

Edward: "I guess DZ is unaware this is Pitt's second nod, having been Oscar-nominated in 1995 for 12 Monkeys."

That was supporting actor, though, which is all he's really good for most of the time. Benjamin Button's just a vanity project.

Doug: "I guess the WGA, the DGA, the PGA and the millions of people who saw it multiple times are all wrong."

Well, they're wrong to think that reality shows count as a product, too. I don't think they shouldn't be paid for their work, but to argue that having people lounging about for 15-30 minutes during a show constitutes anything creative is very egotistical on their part.

Jonah: "Try over fifteen years, bub. Starting with Thelma and Louise, and extending to Buttons."

We've been through that already. The only film he's really scored with on his own name is Troy. Cruise may have been over-paid, but at least he was still able to sell Vanilla Sky and Valkyrie better than Pitt will have been able to sell Basterds and Jesse James.

"The fifteen minutes of fame theory does not apply to him."

It did when he married Jolie.

3rt: "Brad Pitt is the male Julia Roberts. I like Pitt but dislike Julia Roberts."

Nah, Brad Pitt at least has a self-awareness of being a himbo, while Roberts is vapid and shallow.

Jap: "The courtroom scene where a guy pulls a gun on Dent and the gun misfires (the most comic book, and I mean 1950s comic book, scene in a comic movie I've seen),"

Yes, because Benjamin Button's totally believable.

"the preposterous boat scene (I'd like to hear someone defend this scene)"

I actually thought it dragged out, but it's still no worse than sitting through a boat crashing into an iceberg.

"It's a damned good comic movie, but if there are scenes like the above in a serious crime movie, I'm calling that movie on it's lazy writing."

Have you seen Silence of the Lambs or a pre-Hollywood John Woo movie lately?

"When people are saying TDK should win because Titanic and ROTK did then we have a problem. Hey, George Bush was just President for 8 years, let's just lower the bar!"

Titanic and ROTK weren't the best ever, but to compare them to George Bush is an insult to production designers everywhere. Why not say compare Raiders of the Lost Ark to Nixon and Carter while you're at it?

comment #59

JapAdapters says ...

Oh my God, you're a dumb shit.

comment #60

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

JA - Fair enough, you actually did pull two of the weakest scenes out of TDK bag. I don't really think either is quite as effective as it should be, so I won't go to great lengths to defend them.

I think the gun in the courtroom scene was an early scene solely designed to set up key aspects of Dent's character -- how badly the mob wants him out of the picture, how ruthlessly and completely he is willing to pursue criminals, and (most importantly) how goddamn lucky he is.

The boat scene, I think, was intended as a mini-moral drama a la 12 Angry Men on the water. The problem with the scene (IMHO) is there isn't enough individual friction between the people on their respective boats and they all just tend to act as one big mob, which sucks all the dramatic tension out of that scene's conclusion. I think a lot of good superhero movies have failed when they try to portray the actions of large groups of people (the Spider-Man films come to mind).

As far as the conclusion of the film goes, I'm not sure specifically what you disliked. I thought it was great follow-through on Batman as a symbol ("he can be anything Gotham needs him to be..."), as well as pretty damn moving (the idea of sacrificing the safety so that others may keep their optimism/sanity).

However, it also raises some serious moral questions: is it ever right to lie to people, even if it's ultimately for their well-being and peace of mind? I think you can expect Batman & Gordon to face some serious repercussions for their joint decision at the end of TDK throughout the third film in the series. Regardless of the villains and plotline, I think at least that part of the sequel should be fascinating to watch.

comment #61

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

I'll also note that the above two scenes in question make up about five minutes of TDK's total running time. If those five minutes ruined it for you, it's understandable, but I'd argue it's pretty damn difficult to name 5 films this year (let alone any year) that you can't pick apart piece-by-piece and say, "wow, this 3% didn't really work all that well..."

comment #62

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

"he was still able to sell Vanilla Sky and Valkyrie better than Pitt will have been able to sell Basterds and Jesse James."

As D.Z. has already so perceptively pointed out in another thread, Inglorious Basterds has actually already flopped at the box office when it released its script online.

I shit you not.

comment #63

D.Z. says ...

Kane: Yep, and? The reason I said that was Basterds has higher expectations than Kill Bill, because it was hyped as the real follow-up to Pulp Fiction and Jackie Brown. So its script was supposed to be more of a "surprise" than a give-away. But the fact that it got leaked clearly indicates a lack of confidence in it, since it means that QT has to hope his fanbase will be able to get butts into seats after that Serenity-like Grindhouse turn-out.

comment #64

D.Z. says ...

Forgot to add that IG is this year's "The Happening".

comment #65

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

"The reason I said that was Basterds has higher expectations than Kill Bill"

"after that Serenity-like Grindhouse turn-out"

Ah, the good ol' two-faced D.Z. So the expectations for Basterds are either higher than ever, or lower than ever, depending on which way you turn that magic 8-ball of yours that you use to "respond" to commenters.

"But the fact that it got leaked clearly indicates a lack of confidence in it"

Clearly. It's also clearly why studios screen their bombs and flops for critics ahead of their release date. Oh, wait...

The fact that the script got leaked indicates absolutely nothing other than the fact that it was leaked.

"Forgot to add that IG is this year's "The Happening"."

If by "happening," you mean Tarantino's movie is filming right now and it would be asinine to even try to make any comparisons to what the finished product will eventually be, I'll agree with you.

comment #66

Jonah says ...

Jonah: "Try over fifteen years, bub. Starting with Thelma and Louise, and extending to Buttons."

"We've been through that already. The only film he's really scored with on his own name is Troy. Cruise may have been over-paid, but at least he was still able to sell Vanilla Sky and Valkyrie better than Pitt will have been able to sell Basterds and Jesse James. "

I disagree, but it still has nothing to do with fifteen minutes of fame. James Woods has never had a big hit on his own. Is he past his fifteen minutes? Most of George Clooney's movies haven't done that well, is he past his fifteen minutes?

I really don't think you understand the concept of the fifteen minutes of fame.

"The fifteen minutes of fame theory does not apply to him."

It did when he married Jolie. "

Huh? I don't even think they're married, for one thing. But he was famous for well over a decade before they even got together.

I have to say, this was one of your weaker attempts at defending an idiotic position. Try harder next time or we may stop playing.

comment #67

Jonah says ...

DZ,

I'll also add, since you are such an Aniston defender, when is her fifteen minutes up?

Her only big hits in movies were co-starring with Vince Vaughn and now with Owen Wilson. Her biggest hit, Friends, was popular due to all six members of the cast.

This one should be good.

comment #68

Edward Havens says ...

Ray... just an FYI.... Let the Right One In opened too late in its home country to be considered for this year's Foreign Language race, and for some unknown reason, it wasn't entered into this year's race for other categories (Picture, Screenplay, Direction), so technically it is still eligible for next year's Oscars, provided its home country makes it its nominee.

comment #69

D.Z. says ...

Kane: "Ah, the good ol' two-faced D.Z. So the expectations for Basterds are either higher than ever, or lower than ever, depending on which way you turn that magic 8-ball of yours that you use to "respond" to commenters."

They're low for me, high for the QT-defenders.

"It's also clearly why studios screen their bombs and flops for critics ahead of their release date."

They still do that? News to me...

"If by "happening," you mean Tarantino's movie is filming right now and it would be asinine to even try to make any comparisons to what the finished product will eventually be, I'll agree with you."

No, I mean nail in the coffin.

"James Woods has never had a big hit on his own. Is he past his fifteen minutes?"

No, but then he actually varies his roles. [Though if Woods was going the Michael Madsen route with his career choices, it'd be a different story.] Pitt's perpetually typecast as the existential pretty boy. I doubt he'd have the guts to take on "ugly" roles like Cruise.

"Most of George Clooney's movies haven't done that well, is he past his fifteen minutes?"

Most of Clooney's movies aren't meant to do well, though.

"I don't even think they're married, for one thing."

They might as well be at this point.

"But he was famous for well over a decade before they even got together."

Well, technically, he was popular, and then sort of peaked in appeal with Fight Club. Now he's gotta be doing something gimmicky to sell a film. In this case, it's buy an Oscar.

"I'll also add, since you are such an Aniston defender, when is her fifteen minutes up?"

Probably whenever she does her own Benjamin Button-style vanity project. If not that path, it'll be when she starts appearing doing cameo roles and/or "edgy" comedies like Julia Roberts.

"Her only big hits in movies were co-starring with Vince Vaughn and now with Owen Wilson. Her biggest hit, Friends, was popular due to all six members of the cast.

If Owen Wilson can sell a movie, then Cars would've actually been a hit, instead of a disappointment, for Pixar. As for Vaughn, if he was that big, then Fred Claus would have made money. Meanwhile, Aniston has been the only cast-member who's managed to survive the post-Friends curse. ("Run Fat Boy Run" is probably as good as it'll get for Schwimmer.)

You're seriously underestimating Aniston. She's not wallpaper like Bullock, Diaz, or Kidman. She can actually add some credibility to a production, even in her low-rent stuff, because she doesn't come off helpless, brainless, or pathetic like other actresses. But hey, as I said before, highbrow-minded people used to feel the same way about Jim Carrey's acting, too.

comment #70

JapAdapters says ...

ane, I understand what the scenes were trying to do, I just think they did them ham-handedly. For instance, how did the guy get the gun into the farking courthouse??? Lazy writing.

(I just remembered another scene: after the Joker throws Rachel out of Bruce Wayne's penthouse and Batman catches her they cut to another scene. h, hello, the Joker is still in the PH with Gotham's elite!)

I also think the boat scene was false, false, false in what it has to say about human nature, who we are, and ... shit, the criminal mind. Just a strange Polly Anna thing to drop into such a dark movie. My problem with the ending was that I don't need the whole fucking movie explained to me. Just have Batman say "Say I did it" and jet, we see the dogs chasing him, end of movie. All the same points are made and no one's holding my hand.

See, that's just it. None of them ruined the movie for me, I LIKE the movie, saw it twice (once in IMAX), and intend to buy it on Blu Ray. I just don't think it was so much better than BB, and don;t get the hype for it on this level. They made a great looking, very entertaining movie about a man in a bat suit, with an iconic performance. It got me in the theaters twice and to buy the DVD. THAT should be its reward, not artistic, because artistically it had ALL the conceits of the super hero genre. Seriously, if there are scenes like the above in a crime movie not about a dude in tights, they would take me right out of the movie.

I also felt the same way about Titanic. I paid to see the boat sink and got my money's worth in that regard. The fact that the script was garbage doesn't mean the movie shouldn't have made a gazillion dollars, I just thought it meant it shouldn't have been called the best picture, especially when there was a GREAT movie.

comment #71

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

JA - If you're paying attention, they actually address the gun in the courtroom in a line of dialogue from Eckhart. The implication is that the gun is non-metal, foreign, and probably assembled once he was past the pat-downs.

I'm not sure how the Joker in the penthouse can be considered a plot hole. Perhaps he does more damage, perhaps not...sometimes less is more, and using your imagination is appropriate, esp. given the fact that Dent is safe and Batman/Wayne and Rachel are out of the picture. What kind of real dramatic tension can be mined from that situation? I wouldn't be surprised if a sequence like that showed up in the deleted scene section of an upcoming DK Blu-Ray release.

I think you are right about the boat scene. When I watched it the second time, it's dramatically inept, and the acting is way off. Probably the low point of the movie. I still think it's a pretty great idea for one of the Joker's anarchic pranks, but I think the execution was just off.

I don't think the ending is trying to "hold your hand" at all. It's more about Batman as a symbol, and the fact that Gordon is kind of trying to explain Batman's behavior to his son makes it all the dialogue all the more believable, IMHO. "We're going to chase him because he can take it," "he's not a hero, he's our silent guardian"...come on, that is a straight-up iconic superhero monologue (like something you would find in the back pages of a really well-written villain cycle), and by that point of the film, the moment is damn well-earned.

Your points are fair. Like with anything I love, I think I am able to overlook a few minor missteps because by and large, I did think the movie was transcendent for its genre.

So what should have won in '97? Boogie Nights? L.A. Confidential?

comment #72

JChasse says ...

D.Z.... "Cars" would have been a hit? It's the 50th highest grossing film of all time. I think that qualifies it as a hit.

comment #73

JapAdapters says ...

Kane, I think we mostly agree. Personally, I think thought the gun in the courtroom was a sign of the corruption in Gotham, but not explaining it (or glossing over it) speaks to the level of the script. As for the Penthouse scene, my issue was more that Batman should probably have gotten back up there post haste. Just saying.

The ending was some ham-handed shit to me, though. Have the kid ask why he's running, Gordan say because he can take it, and show the dogs chasing his ass. It's a matter of personal taste, but I don;t need a VO telling me what's going on.

Again, I'm fine with the movie, like it even (though it got weaker the second time whereas BB got better to me), but I think it IS a super hero movie. What I mean is, I'm willing to let things go for a movie like TDK that I wouldn't for a movie set in the real world. And any Best Picture nominee with a scene as poor as the boat scene would draw my scorn.

I would have been fine with Boogie Nights winning in '97 but I think LA Confidential is the last truly great American movie. Ironically, the thing that kept LAC from being PERFECT to me was the ending where Exley explains everything (for the audience's sake), when it should have ended with the cop cars rolling up to the motel and Exley flashing his badge. At least LAC was convoluted, though, so I understand the desire to explain it to people.

comment #74

Jonah says ...

DZ

Brother, you did not let me down. You're way wrong on everything you said, of course, but when your back is against the wall you just keep firing from both barrels.

I've never known anybody so wiling and able to talk out of both sides of their mouth before.

comment #75

Jonah says ...

So, Owen Willson and Vince Vaughn get no credit for making their films with Aniston hits. Yet Aniston gets the credit despite the fact that she's headlined many a box office bomb? Aniston has never headlined a box office blockbuster, son.

time for the other side of your mouth to speak up and spew some of that DZ logic.

comment #76

JapAdapters says ...

Jonah, if you lay down with dogs, you get fleas.

comment #77

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

I disliked the ending of LAC a lot more than the ending of TDK, but I pretty much thought it was perfect up until that point.

Agreed that it certainly would have been a better BP choice than Titanic.

comment #78

D.Z. says ...

JapAdapters: "I just don't think it was so much better than BB,"

I actually agree with you there. And I more than agree with you on Titanic. But Nolan's still good for it. Not sure if Cameron was more than good for it, though, considering his success came from plagiarizing Harlan Ellison.

Jonah: "So, Owen Willson and Vince Vaughn get no credit for making their films with Aniston hits. Yet Aniston gets the credit despite the fact that she's headlined many a box office bomb? Aniston has never headlined a box office blockbuster, son."

Aniston's done as well on her own as Vaughn in Swingers, Made, and Fred Clause and Wilson in Drillbit Taylor and Bottle Rocket.

JChasse: "D.Z.... "Cars" would have been a hit? It's the 50th highest grossing film of all time."

Not in relation to other Pixar films.

comment #79

JChasse says ...

No, dude, I'm not letting you get the last word on this. You are wrong, as you often are. The fiftieth highest grossing film of all time qualifies as a hit, regardless of what came before it by the studio. And unlike most other Disney/Pixar movies, chances are good that the things the movie will generate (if not the movie itself) will be earning money for the studio even when our kids are having kids (that is, if you're allowed to have kids- I can see government mandating that your gene pool be nipped in the bud to save future generations of your foolishness). No one's crying in their coffee over "Cars" at Pixar or Disney.

Why do I let you aggravate me?

comment #80

JChasse says ...

I meant "like", not "unlike" in the third line. Damn, you drive me nuts sometimes!

comment #81

D.Z. says ...

JChasse: It qualifies as a hit after the other Pixar movies, but not a hit in its own right. And I'm not sure why you think Cars is any more a good future investment for Di$ney than the Black Cauldron-especially after the company's stock went to hell when that sucker underperformed. I imagine they only want to do a sequel, because they think they can shoot it on the cheap and not lose money this time.

comment #82

JChasse says ...

First, you said that it underperformed compared to other Pixar films. Now you're saying that it qualifies as a hit after the other Pixar movies. Do you read what you write? Do you retain a thought in your head after you blurt it out for all to read?

And "Cars" is a better investment than "Black Cauldron" because a) "Cars" are more accessible to the child demographic than the themes of "Black Cauldron" and b) the fact that more people saw "Cars" than "BC" means that more people are likely to introduce it to their children fifteen or so years down the line. I can't list how many of the 70-80's fims I've introduced to my kids because I saw them when I was their age and enjoyed them. And while I didn't see "BC" in the theaters, I'm pretty sure I got in video somewhere, because that Disney logo is practically a license to take money from parents.

comment #83

yokek says ...

you blurt it out for all to read?
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comment #84

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