comment #1

EricGilde says ...

Hepatitis? Ooooh, bad joke, Jeff. Kind of an endearing bad joke, but I wish I had a foghorn on me, all the same.

You know, Gran Torino ALMOST worked for me, but it just didn't at the end. The material's just a little too hokey, which is fine and can work if you have acting that can rise above it. Mystic River and Milllion Dollar Baby both had moments that seemed a little heavy-handed (Tim Robbins' vampire speech, Morgan Freeman fighting the guy at the gym), but Clint had the benefit of exceptional actors who could ground it.

But really, what nails the coffin shut for me are the kids that play the Hmong neighbors. They are both just so bad that it took me out of about half of the movie, and when you're standing out there a lot of the dialogue just sounds, well... lame. The young priest, too, actually. Every closeup that he has, his face is a sea of weird little ticks and twitches. It doesn't read as character so much as the guy playing him was just a little too nervous for his big moments with Clint.

I get that you're locked into your love of the movie, but really the younger actors are the big thing that kept me from doing it. Especially when you look at a movie like the Wrestler, where not only is the acting pretty damn impeccable throughout, but the attention to detail is obsessive in almost everything you see onscreen.

I remember seeing an interview with Kevin Bacon around the time Mystic River came out, and he did an impression of Eastwood directing, which was basically him saying, "Ok, let's go." And that's what it looked like here. It looks like he seriously needed to work with some of the other actors, but for whatever reason, didn't.

Clint was great, mind you, and I do think that he's an amazing artist. I just didn't think it came together. Nice to read this, though, after seeing the film. Obviously things like the manning up of Thao are as dear to Clint as some of the larger themes of urban decay and race that play throughout the film.

But wow... Hepatitis! hehe.

comment #2

Jeffrey Wells says ...

It's an old Woody Allen joke, something he originally published in the New Yorker, I think.

comment #3

The Hoyk says ...

Eastwood the artist seems to understand something that Eastwood the man doesn't want to own up to in the interview - bullies just got plain smarter, meaner and deadlier. They figured out how to skirt the rules so that anyone who did dare challenge them got punished instead. Then, if you did manage to give them a good beatdown, they eschewed their fists and bought guns, often lots of them, and they killed you for making them look like a chump. Be it Gene Hackmanl's retaliation in UNFORGIVEN, Angelina Jolie jailed by corrupt cops in CHANGELING, or the Hmong gang escalating their threat in GRAN TORINO, the filmmaker demonstrates that true evil doesn't stop just because you call it out.
And while America does seem like it got pussified, it also got musclefied to the point where the bullies were now indeed the power structure, and standing up for yourself was not enough. Be it the Vince Lombardi "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" mantra, or Gordon Gekko's "Greed is good" meme, too many folk decided it was easier to be the bully than beat him. What better representation than the jockboy fascists that have had the power over the last decade and made things like science, nuance, and deep thought objects of ridicule while brute force, snark, and blind allegiance are championed?

comment #4

byanyother says ...

Racist, bigoted white people get this film you mean.

comment #5

mpneeb says ...

>>"We live in more of a pussy generation now..."

Uh, okay.

Clint, I want you to go over to the gates of Fort Lewis or Fort Bragg and find some of the guys or girls that have just gotten back from their THIRD 12 month tour in Iraq or Afghanistan and tell them they're pussies.
I love Clint Eastwood but he's been watching too much FOX "News."

comment #6

Howlingman says ...

Pussy .

;-)

comment #7

Mr. Muckle says ...

Well said, Hoyk. I think I get and agree with your main point, Jeffrey, but it's surrounded by a load of crap. Where do you guys come from that you're obsessed with bullies? There were no bullies where I grew up, except for the parental generation, perhaps. It's your karma, man! In other words, at some point, you bring it on yourselves.

And machismo of whatever kind is just bullshit. What's more pussy after all than that kind of poser (alright, poseur)? What's more pussy than acting?

These tough guys, Eastwood, Mel Gibson, Christian fundamentalists, Zionists, etc., etc., are all obsessed with being picked on, tortured until they cannot help but lash out. And that's what they think is heroic?! That's just setting up an excuse to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions. Hitler himself grabbed power by exploiting the sense of oppression the Germans had absorbed after losing WWI.

This stuff is seriously bent, psychologically. Eastwood may be a nice guy and an interesting artist, but nothing about him is worthy of worship, least of all his phony, cinematic machismo.

comment #8

EricGilde says ...

Ah, Woody Allen. That makes perfect sense, and I'm sure that in his article he just sort of slipped it in there in the same way, right? I love that he has the wit and wisdom to spin out endless Wildean aphorisms, but isn't afraid to be just goofy.

I love jokes like that. They're so silly, but they linger. I also always liked the joke that those people who achieve Oneness will then move on to Twoness.

comment #9

JChasse says ...

"...the Beatles, the Kinks and the long-hair revolution that followed..."

The Kinks? Really? That's the band that comes to mind? Perhaps if you "shine a light" into the deepest corners of your mind, you can find a more appropriate band for your point.

comment #10

George Prager says ...

Next up for Eastwood: a remake of MASSACRE AT CENTRAL HIGH.

comment #11

jjgittes says ...

JChasse - Really, the Kinks were far more appropriate for Jeff's example than the Stones.

The Stones were like a gang - they were thuggish.......they were rooted in the danger and swagger of the blues. Which is probably why their 60s work still sounds so fresh actually.

comment #12

Gordie Lachance says ...

The pussifycation of America really started in earnest around the advent of No Smoking signs, PG-13 movies and bike helmets. Clint's right. We're a nation of sissies.

comment #13

arturobandini2 says ...

At what age will Clint Eastwood stop playing the victim card? I really do love the man for his solid support of all things jazz, but he has a dark side that borders on bullydom. Ask Sondra Locke. After he got her a couple of directing gigs, their romance faded and things got nasty. In the middle of directing Impulse, she came home from a night shoot to find that he'd changed all the locks on her house. Maybe she asked for it -- I don't know the particulars -- but having met her, I doubt it. She was a bright lady and loved foreign films and art movies, and probably had a lot more to do with the evolution of his taste and talent that he'd ever admit.

comment #14

George Prager says ...

..and she was married to a guy who loved to walk around in elf boots the whole time she was with Clint.

comment #15

BurmaShave says ...

byanyother, how stupid do you have to be to think the film advocates bigotry?

comment #16

Sabina E says ...

Clint needs to shut his fucking mouth. "Pussy" generation? Nice, way to go, what a sexist douche-bag.

equating weakness and wimpy guys with female body parts? So fucking overrated and cliched.

comment #17

VoiceOfReason says ...

Hey DeafBrownTurdPunk ,
Way to prove Clint's point, you big pussy.

comment #18

Jonah says ...

"Clint needs to shut his fucking mouth. "Pussy" generation? Nice, way to go, what a sexist douche-bag.

equating weakness and wimpy guys with female body parts? So fucking overrated and cliched. "

Good God the PC police are out in full force.

Have you ever called somebody a dickhead, deafbrown? Are you a hypocrite? Do you really think Clint was referring to an actual pussy?

comment #19

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

Well, Million Dollar Baby tried to ask about the meaning of life, but did so in such a hackneyed and cliched way it was laughable.

So I guess that makes Clint a wannabe-pussy and bully by default?

comment #20

arturobandini2 says ...

Prager, I forgot about the Elf Man. And didn't he live with Clint and Sondra at the time? Can't remember, but it was definitely an atypical director/actress relationship. I'll say this for Clint -- he's obviously drawn to strong, opinionated women. Locke was nowhere as wispy or as mousy as she looked. And a few years later, Frances Fisher sat in front of me at an art flick and wasted no time striking up a conversation (with me, a total stranger) about the filmmaker.

comment #21

George Prager says ...

This is the good shit. From Entertainment Weekly's review of her memoir:
"But the book's strangest plotline involves another triangle, with Locke's gay husband, Gordon Anderson, whom she married in 1968 and remains married to in name today. A friend since their high school days in Tennessee, Locke married Anderson even after he told her he was gay, and they moved to L.A. in 1968. More of the book is devoted to Anderson, a former actor, than Eastwood. ''My love for Gordon came from such a deeply connected place,'' Locke writes, ''that it transcended everything else.'' (Locke, who recently signed to direct another film, has apparently always supported Anderson financially.)

At first, Anderson, who Locke says wears elf shoes, spends weeks preparing for Christmas, and has psychic flashes and premonitions, sounds merely eccentric. But later when he is deemed a religious ''mystic,'' you have to wonder about everyone's sanity. Bruises in the shapes of mandalas appear on Anderson's thigh. Lamps turn on and off at his house. Mysterious halos and odd lights appear in photos he takes. Five of his dead mother's lost hairpins turn up in his bathroom. Locke also describes the day their cat Chloe Jr. (believed to be related to their beloved Chloe Sr., who could be heard ''trilling'' in the refrigerator after her death) led Anderson and Locke to the bathroom, where they saw an ''Eastern-looking'' face -- complete with the ''classic third eye'' -- forming in toilet-bowl water and dissolving into ''ram's horns.''

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,290016,00.html

comment #22

D.Z. says ...

"That's a great paragraph and pure Eastwood. And he's speaking the truth besides. Even if you get beat up as a result of fighting back the bullies will respect you and leave you alone after that. America machismo was built upon such childhood experiences."

You mean the kind of machismo which has given us school shootings and a horrible reputation in the world?

comment #23

arturobandini2 says ...

Holy shit ... in the toilet bowl?

comment #24

Jake says ...

But then Clint ruins the vibe when he says, "I don't know if I can tell you exactly when the pussy generation started. Maybe when people started asking about the meaning of life."

I'm pretty sure that people have been wondering about the meaning of life since the days of Socrates, Achilles, Pythagoras and Hepatitis, if not earlier.

Just to put that quote into context...it should be noted that the entire theme of the article was celebrities being asked, "What's the meaning of life?"

comment #25

Yuval says ...

That is the right-wing republican mindset in a nutshell. We have to be as strong as we can and constantly show the rest of the world we are the strongest. The suprise comes when you realize the real world is more complicated than a school (or a jail) playground. If you just hit back to show your strength then you won't want to think about the meaning of life, you just wasted a few thousands of those just to show how pussyless you are.
Jonah, you miserable cunt, if you took your head out of your vagina long enough you would have noticed that female body parts equate a specific sexist meaning. Male body parts can also be used in a derogatory way, but never to mean coward or weak (only in the negative, dickless). The way Eastwood and almost everyone here use the word pussy only shows how much society and history are viewed as male creatures. You would never call a woman a pussy or dickless or ask her when did she lose her balls. And if you look at the history of women in the US from the 50s to now, you wouldn’t say they became weaker, will you?
I’m not for mindless PC, but I focus more on the "mindless" douche bag.

comment #26

Kim Voynar says ...

DeafBrownTrashPunk said: "Clint needs to shut his fucking mouth. "Pussy" generation? Nice, way to go, what a sexist douche-bag. equating weakness and wimpy guys with female body parts? So fucking overrated and cliched."

Jonah replied: "Good God the PC police are out in full force. Have you ever called somebody a dickhead, deafbrown? Are you a hypocrite? Do you really think Clint was referring to an actual pussy?"

Weighing in as the resident bitchy feminist here: The word "pussy" in this context obviously doesn't refer to female anatomy, DeafBrown. I use that word all the time, as in "Jesus H, would you stop being such a whiny-ass pussy?" And, for the record, I've called many people "dickhead" too, although, depending on the person, "douche" or "worthless choad" may be more appropriate.

However, if what DeafBrown is getting at here is the macho-man tendency to equate pacifism, softness, kindness, sensitivity, and empathy as being "too girly" or feminine for a "real" man, I can get behind that. I loathe it when parents (usually fathers, in my experience) berate their young sons for crying, or being "too sensitive" or won't even hug them to comfort them if they're scared or hurt. Teaching boys that the only way to be "men" is to be tough, never cry, growl at people, beat the shit out of anyone who crosses your line, is not teaching them to not be pussies, it's teaching them to be assholes instead. Not a big improvement in body parts, IMO.

Also, I'd like to note, for the record, that a lot of manly-man tough-guy types turn into the biggest pussies EVER when they come down with a nasty case of flu or food poisoning, whereas women make it through natural childbirth all the time, not to mention carrying on with caring for the kids, doing housework and working through minor illnesses that have their husbands moaning under the quilts for some Nyquil and juice. Pussiness has more to do with your inner resilence (or lack thereof) than how many asses you kick.

comment #27

Sabina E says ...

However, if what DeafBrown is getting at here is the macho-man tendency to equate pacifism, softness, kindness, sensitivity, and empathy as being "too girly" or feminine for a "real" man, I can get behind that. I loathe it when parents (usually fathers, in my experience) berate their young sons for crying, or being "too sensitive" or won't even hug them to comfort them if they're scared or hurt. Teaching boys that the only way to be "men" is to be tough, never cry, growl at people, beat the shit out of anyone who crosses your line, is not teaching them to not be pussies, it's teaching them to be assholes instead. Not a big improvement in body parts, IMO.

Yeah. pretty much what I meant.

comment #28

Sabina E says ...

Good God the PC police are out in full force.

Have you ever called somebody a dickhead, deafbrown? Are you a hypocrite? Do you really think Clint was referring to an actual pussy?

who the fuck are you calling the PC, you fucking cunt? Get the fuck over yourself.

comment #29

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

"who the fuck are you calling the PC, you fucking cunt?"

Wow, it's a good thing she's a girl otherwise we'd have the PC navy seals up in here!

"Also, I'd like to note, for the record, that a lot of manly-man tough-guy types turn into the biggest pussies EVER when they come down with a nasty case of flu or food poisoning"

Yeah, fight those mindless stereotypes by dishing equally mindless stereotypes in the opposite direction. Good stuff.

comment #30

K. Bowen says ...

Awesome.

comment #31

lipranzer says ...

There's a quote on Eastwood's IMdB page attributed to him where he says, in part:

"The most gentle people in the world are macho males, people who are confident in their masculinity and have a feeling of well-being in themselves. They don't have to kick in doors, mistreat women, or make fun of gays."

Now, granted, that quote may have been given to a different publication than Esquire, and for a different readership, but that quote there is a lot more nuanced than his "pussy generation" quote. I don't know about you, Mr. Eastwood, but I was bullied when I was a kid, and no, I wasn't left alone even when I tried to fight back. So pardon me if, like DeathBrown and Kim Voynar, I take a more skeptical view of the idea that sensitivity and kindness has no place in a man's world because it isn't "macho."

comment #32

Kim Voynar says ...

CitzenKaned wrote: "Yeah, fight those mindless stereotypes by dishing equally mindless stereotypes in the opposite direction. Good stuff."

Well, first off, I, for one, wasn't fighting mindless stereotypes, although stereotypes often become such because there's a grain of truth in them. I don't know if you're a man or a woman, Kaned, but I'd challenge you to find any married woman who hasn't fought through colds, flu and the like while also holding down the homestead (and, in many cases, working as well, because women with kids are more likely to save their sick leave for having to stay home with their sick kids than to use it up on themselves, unless we are practically on our deathbeds), while dealing a day or so later with a sick husband who can't get his ass out of bed while dealing with the same virus.

Almost all the men of my personal acquaintence (and I include my wonderful husband in this, along with my father, my uncle, and my brother) is a major pussy when it comes to being sick with a cold or flu. And my husband, I assure you, would be the first to back me up on this, although he has toughened up on handling minor illnesses after 14 years of marriage.

And further, Kaned, you show me a single man -- ONE -- who could handle natural childbirth (as I have three times, so I do know what I'm speaking of here) ... and I'll show you a man who used to be a woman. If men had to go through pregnancy and birth, our population would diminish rapidly within a couple of generations. Sad, but true. Seriously, after my youngest daughter was born (at home) I was up and fixing dinner for myself and my 4YO daughter with the newborn tucked in a sling while my husband was so sacked out with the 2YO he didn't even realize we hadn't eaten. So seriously, don't whine to me about stereotypes.

On the other hand, while I have done natural childbirth and breastfed four kids for ten solid years, I have never had the inclination to pick up a big gun and blow the shit out of anyone, and I would probably be a ginormous pussy myself if anyone shot me in any body part or I blew off a leg stepping on a land mine, so perhaps you could argue that men and women handle different types of pain differently.

And Deafbrown: You negate your argument completely by calling anyone a "fucking cunt." I personally hate the use of that word in any context far more than the word pussy in most circumstances, including during sex. Unless, of course, you're a Brit, in which case you have an automatic free pass to use the term "cunt" at will, as well as "you lot" and "whilst."

comment #33

scooterzz says ...

just my opinion but i beleive it's ms. voyner ftw....

comment #34

Yuval says ...

Kim Voynar, I fear you don't have a firm grasp of what sexism or any kind of worthless categorization means. You don't know ONE man that can handle natural childbirth. How exactly did you test that theory? How about men that went through torture that went on for years, including to their genitals and then managed to live on? Are years of physical torture enough to be considered at the same breath with your 4 breast feeding kids and your lazy whiny husband?
Your family and your personal experiences of handling the sniffles doesn't amount to a satisfactory examination of the natural differences between men and women.
If I know 3 black people and they are all lazy and stupid does that mean it is a racial fact? A lot of americans through the last centuries believed it was.

comment #35

Kim Voynar says ...

Yuval, I already took myself to task (here: http://www.mcnblogs.com/filmessent/2009/01/whatd_you_call_me.html ) a bit for defending the word pussy as completely not sexist. But I stand by my belief that women, generally, deal with sickness and pain better than men. And no, I don't have any studies in front of me to back up my assertion, but I'll bet there are some women's studies profs who could quote them by rote. And the phenomenon of men handling colds and flus like, well, pussies, is not, I assure you, a miraculous happening only in our family. Hell, I'll bet there are men, even on this site, who know it's true and would have the balls (damn, another sexist term! I need to make a list...) to admit it.

And for the record, I never said my husband is lazy. Quite the contrary -- the man handles all four homeschooling kids, plus his job, by himself every time I travel for work. Which is quite a lot. He's an extraordinary man, and I'm lucky to have him as a partner. You try being married to me ... not easy. :-)

comment #36

Jonah says ...

"who the fuck are you calling the PC, you fucking cunt? Get the fuck over yourself."

Wow, Deafbrown. Pure class.

Hmm...so you're using a part of the female anatomy as a way to insult me. That's strange, considering your first post on this thread. I thought you were just deaf. Turns out you're also stupid.

This is probably what I should expect from someone that throws in an obligatory "fucking" into every post they write.

comment #37

Yuval says ...

"a bit for defending the word pussy as completely not sexist"
I read your post, you actually seem to agree that the use of the word is sexist, you just use the word yourself and you don't want to consider yourself sexist in anyway.
"But I stand by my belief that women, generally, deal with sickness and pain better than men"
That is not what you said earlier, you were mentioning men's inability to handle pains as some sort of natural disposition. Even if it is true that at the moment men are more effected by sickness than women it is not the proof you're searching for.

comment #38

Kim Voynar says ...

"a bit for defending the word pussy as completely not sexist"
I read your post, you actually seem to agree that the use of the word is sexist, you just use the word yourself and you don't want to consider yourself sexist in anyway."

You apparently didn't read the post very well, Yuval. I said right in the post that my own use of the word "pussy" makes me a sexist feminist, and that I'll have to have a talk with myself about that. While the post was a bit tongue-in-cheek, I was quite serious about the need to look more closely at my own use of the word, and perhaps find another word that doesn't have sexist overtones but still conveys much the same meaning. Suggestions welcome.

I may be an occasionally cranky bitch at times (especially if you catch me before my first cup of coffee), but I do value honesty a great deal, and when I unearth contradictions I'm guilty of through a conversation like this one, I do actually ponder it and strive to correct it. That doesn't mean I'll never say "stop being such a whiny pussy" again, especially when Wells loses yet another digital camera or iPhone or his luggage or emotionally vivid hotel reservation, but I am resolved to try to be better about it and find a more appropriate word.

"But I stand by my belief that women, generally, deal with sickness and pain better than men"
That is not what you said earlier, you were mentioning men's inability to handle pains as some sort of natural disposition. Even if it is true that at the moment men are more effected by sickness than women it is not the proof you're searching for.

Dude (and I assume you're a guy). Again, you need to read more carefully. I don't believe at all that men are more affected by sickness than women *physically*. I absolutely believe it's a combination of both an inherent genetic tendency that comes with the Y chromosome, a learned gender difference inherent to one's upbringing, and perhaps a psychological desire to be mothered again when sick that makes men (okay, I'll qualify with "a lot of men") turn into big weenies when they're sick with a minor illness. (Can I say "weenies," or is that sexist too?)

comment #39

Yuval says ...

"I absolutely believe it's a combination of both an inherent genetic tendency that comes with the Y chromosome"
Yes, that is why I think you are completely wrong on this point since you don't have a clue about genetic tendencies (and genetic tendencies determines our bodies *physically*)
"perhaps a psychological desire to be mothered again when sick that makes men (okay, I'll qualify with "a lot of men") turn into big weenies when they're sick with a minor illness."
Again, you're confusing your personal experiences (with "a lot of men") with a knowledgeable conclusion of the man psyche and how it differs from a woman.
"Can I say "weenies," or is that sexist too?"
I don't find the term weenie offensive and sexist, and I don't see a difference in the amount of sexism that comes with the terms pussy or cunt. But the meaning of words (and their sexism) change depending on the context. There is nothing inherently racist about the word nigger, only the way it was used throughout history made it racist. And the way people use the word pussy here and in general makes it sexist.

comment #40

masanf says ...

"What better representation than the jockboy fascists that have had the power over the last decade and made things like science, nuance, and deep thought objects of ridicule while brute force, snark, and blind allegiance are championed?"

Yet again more evidence, as if any more were needed, that the word fascist is the most over-used and misused word of the past forty years.

comment #41

Kim Voynar says ...

"There is nothing inherently racist about the word nigger, only the way it was used throughout history made it racist. And the way people use the word pussy here and in general makes it sexist."

Well, yes, but isn't that true of just about any term you could come up with? Words don't exist in a vacuum, they derive their meanings from the ways in which people use and understand them. The words "fat" or "thin" for instance, only put a particular picture in your head because of the way in which you've been conditioned to think of those words. Words have meaning because people come to think of them as meaning a particular thing over a period of time. "Gay" used to just mean "happy," once upon a time, but now it means something completely different; it's not the words themselves that change, it's our understanding of or agreement upon what they mean that changes them.

Further, the meaning of a word also depends upon both who is speaking (or writing) it and to whom it's directed, and the context in which the word is used. One gay guy calling another "fag" has a different meaning than an angry homophobe yelling "fag" while beating the shit out of a gay guy. The use of the word "nigga" in a rap song by a black artist has a completely different meaning that the word "nigger" in a song performed by a skinhead band. The use of the word "pussy" in a sexual context between consenting partners is different than someone calling someone a "pussy" in a way that implies femininity or weakness. And etc.

Even here in this little segment of internet space, the words "emotionally vivid" (particularly when said together with "cowboy hat") now have a specific meaning to the readers who frequent HE that they wouldn't have to anyone else. Words minus their context are nothing more than a group of letters in a particular order.

comment #42

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

"I'd challenge you to find any married woman who hasn't fought through colds, flu and the like while also holding down the homestead (and, in many cases, working as well, because women with kids are more likely to save their sick leave for having to stay home with their sick kids than to use it up on themselves, unless we are practically on our deathbeds), while dealing a day or so later with a sick husband who can't get his ass out of bed while dealing with the same virus."

I'm sure I could find a few married women who deal with illness infinitely worse than their husbands. I personally work with 2 or 3 of them. But just because my immediate personal experiences would lead me to believe that guys deal with it better than gals, I'm not naive enough to think what's true (or what I *perceive* as true) in my little world is true of the world at large. Things generally even out. I don't think *anyone* can expect his/her personal life to act as an accurate microcosm of the entire real world, or even country. I don't care how eclectic you think you are, your acquaintances (and friends to an even stronger extent) are not going to span over every class, age, race, creed, occupation, geographic region, etc. I guarantee a 55 year-old lower-class single farmer from Iowa is going to get his ass up at the crack of dawn to plow those fields unless his heart is literally being ripped from his body. I don't really see how male or female even enters into that equation. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

"Almost all the men of my personal acquaintence (and I include my wonderful husband in this, along with my father, my uncle, and my brother) is a major pussy when it comes to being sick with a cold or flu. And my husband, I assure you, would be the first to back me up on this, although he has toughened up on handling minor illnesses after 14 years of marriage."

Well, I am a single twenty-something guy (you did ask earlier) who's working two jobs to make ends meet. I've called off about 5 times total over the last 8 years of work. And that's including some of my final years at school when I had classes, too. Most of the guys I work with have similar records (one dude hasn't missed a single day at one job in his 6 years there). Very few women there have comparable records of tardiness. My intention here isn't to brag or even to provide a counter-example and say that guys are tougher or less prone to getting sick, I am simply saying that everyone's individual experiences are different. You know what I think? I think the people LEAST likely to be knocked on their ass by illness are people who live paycheck to paycheck and are too responsible to let their world fall to shit. Those people simply don't have any choice but to show up day after day.

"And further, Kaned, you show me a single man -- ONE -- who could handle natural childbirth (as I have three times, so I do know what I'm speaking of here) ... and I'll show you a man who used to be a woman."

Nearly Impossible to argue *that*, but I'm not sure what you are trying to prove by this, exactly? Sure, guys can't handle childbirth, but then again they don't really have the bodies designed for it, now do they? Kind of like how women don't have the bodies to run as fast or lift as much weight as men. I'm sure I will get shit for that comment, but it's the same idea, really, isn't it?

"If men had to go through pregnancy and birth, our population would diminish rapidly within a couple of generations. Sad, but true. Seriously, after my youngest daughter was born (at home) I was up and fixing dinner for myself and my 4YO daughter with the newborn tucked in a sling while my husband was so sacked out with the 2YO he didn't even realize we hadn't eaten. So seriously, don't whine to me about stereotypes."

Again, a personal experience. I'm sure it's probably common. Men seem happy to let women handle a lot of the parental care, and since women can seem biologically obliged to do so, that's how it often (but not always) works out...I think when some people get married they sort of let their "personal care" inclinations slide a bit knowing they have someone at home who is willing to look after them and/or care for them when they're not feeling well. I think it's nice, although coming from a non-married perspective, a little bit pathetic.

"On the other hand, while I have done natural childbirth and breastfed four kids for ten solid years, I have never had the inclination to pick up a big gun and blow the shit out of anyone, and I would probably be a ginormous pussy myself if anyone shot me in any body part or I blew off a leg stepping on a land mine, so perhaps you could argue that men and women handle different types of pain differently."

It's just the gender roles that society assigns. Some people seem to conform more easily than others, especially in civilized society. I guarantee that if push came to shove and you absolutely had to wage warfare in the wild, your mind might initially resist, but your body (and eventually your mind) would do whatever it had to do to survive. I have a sneaking suspicion the same outcome would hold true if hypothetical circumstances forced men to give birth (assuming it became biologically possible).

Thanks for the thorough response there, Kim. Obviously, I take back the mindless stereotype comment.

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As someone who managed a theater for several years in my early twenties, I have experience with people calling out sick.

We had a good mixture of male and female employees, ranging in age mostly from 16-early twenties.

Not only did the female employees call out sick far more than the male employees, I also had females call out more often becaues of bad driving conditions (mainly snow) and personal reasons.

Just my experience. But it was over close to a 5 year period.

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