Don't Let Me Down

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I was accused of having plebian taste buds a few days ago after expressing profound disappointment with the sandstorm-level grain on Criterion's Third Man Blu-ray disc. A tiny bit shamed, I popped it again after arriving home last night from Los Angeles, trying this time to watch it with a Glenn Kenny attitude. Wow, love that grain. Grain is so beautiful. Oooh, yeah! It didn't work. I still felt burned. I felt angry, in fact.

Old black-and-white films shot under less-than-optimum conditions (like The Third Man) look too filmy on Blu-ray so they need to be moderately de-grained. End of discussion. Not wiped clean like that 2002 Paramount Sunset Boulevard DVD, but definitely cleaned up a bit. Because low-rent peons like myself don't want renderings that are overly celluloid-looking (i.e., grainy, speckly, eight-at-the-gate). We want an image that looks better than what the original filmmakers and labs were able to render. An image quality that the old-time filmmakers would have chosen for sure if it had been put before them.

This is what I can't stand about the grain purists. They actually maintain with a straight face that Billy Wilder and Orson Welles would have said if given a choice, "Oh, no -- don't make the image look too clean and silvery! We prefer our classic films to be a little muddy, a little clouded up by that grain-storm effect. Better that way."

Why aren't the big home-video outfits putting out Blu-rays of the big-format films of the '50s and '60s? All the classic 70mm roadshows (Lawrence of Arabia, Mutiny on the Bounty, Dr. Zhivago, Oklahoma!, Around the World in Eighty Days, Ryan's Daughter, Ben-Hur, Spartacus, the mediocre '63 Cleopatra, West Side Story), VistaVisions (North by Northwest, Vertigo, To Catch a Thief) and whatnot. Not because they were uniformly great films, but because they'd look terrific on Blu-ray.

Note: Yes, I'm aware that Sony is working on a Lawrence Blu-ray, but it's taking them forever. I was told last year that they may actually wait until 2012 to put it out so they can call it a 50th Anniversary edition.

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Posted by Jeffrey Wells on February 1, 2009 at 10:01 AM

comment #1

thevisceral says ...

I'll stick with my ViewMaster slides.

Posted by thevisceral at February 1, 2009 10:52 AM

comment #2

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

What's the solution here? The Third Man was released in 1949. You want every film to magically look like The Matrix, or what?

Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at February 1, 2009 10:55 AM

comment #3

Sabina E says ...

Don't watch Blu-Ray discs, Jeffrey.

I'll stick with regular DVDs for now ^_^

Posted by Sabina E at February 1, 2009 10:58 AM

comment #4

Jeffrey Wells says ...

Wells to to CitizenKaned: No, not like The Matrix. On the level of the Blu-ray Casablanca. Silvery, satiny, luscious monochrome. Moderately de-grained when necessary. There's a nice middle ground between celluloid murk and video-game aridity.

Posted by Jeffrey Wells at February 1, 2009 11:01 AM

comment #5

nouvelle_vague says ...

Jeff, you're wrong here from Criterion's point of view. In Peter Becker's own words, they won't "scrub" a film to remove "defects" if the result will ultimately give you a picture that looks too artificial. They won't give you a picture that "looks better than what the original filmmakers and labs were able to render" if that picture isnt what was originally shown. That's why they really only release things in mono because its honest to the orignal experience.Basically, they won't move anywhere near "video game arditry" if there's ANY negative draw backs.

From dvdbeaver.com

"This transfer has the same infrequent marks and speckles, much less noise/more grain than the re-issue DVD and looks pretty sweet with rich contrast that appears a shade more pure. In short everything is better visually. "

Posted by nouvelle_vague at February 1, 2009 11:31 AM

comment #6

Glenn Kenny says ...

Hey, bud, you started it with all that insane-monk-in-the-French-Alps or whatever business. So you don't like the "Third Man" Blu-ray. We'll both just have to live with that. Although I'd be interested in your perspectives on the Criterion SDs of "Simon of the Desert" (grain city, and not just because of the desert) and "Hobson's Choice" (which I think should definitely pass your satin test and is breathtaking from first frame to last). "Third Man," for all its luminousness, was location shot, and in a mostly documentary lighting style (at least the daylight scenes). It looks how it look, although I can't say my Blu-ray kicks up a grain storm. Maybe I've got my set calibrated wrong. Or maybe...oh, never mind.

As for why stuff like "Zhivago," "Oklahoma," etc. isn't on Blu-ray yet, it probably has something to do with why dreck like "A Time To Kill" IS on Blu-ray already—the studios are more confident that one will sell and the other might not. They're not just gonna put product out for the sake of how good it'll look...

Warner had a very handsome HD of "Mutiny on the Bounty" —its exisence in my collection is one of only 13 reasons I'm still hanging on to my old HD player.

Posted by Glenn Kenny at February 1, 2009 11:38 AM

comment #7

Glenn Kenny says ...

God, I'm a typo machine today...

Posted by Glenn Kenny at February 1, 2009 11:39 AM

comment #8

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

I'm sympathetic to Wells' view here, but still disagree. Like pro-tools and auto-tune in music, the shit technology can do to transform the look of an old movie today is dangerously susceptible to bad taste. Prime example = the Patton blu-ray.

Wells, do yourself a favor, and if you haven't already, get Good Night, and Good Luck on blu-ray. It's the bliss you're looking for.

Last, more than Lawrence of Arabia or any other older title, what I want on blu-ray is Heat. The dvd transfer is horrendous. I'm shocked that Miami Vice is the only Mann film on blu ray. You'd think a technical guy like him would be all over this format.

Posted by NotImpressed1Yet at February 1, 2009 11:47 AM

comment #9

Deathtongue_Groupie says ...

NotImpressed1Yet - you must be looking at the original DVD of HEAT. I have the special edition and it looks superb.

Jeff - well, most of those same filmmakers would have opted to shoot their films in color given the budget, so I guess you are also advocating a return to colorization too. No, I'm not being facetious, because that's the same argument.

You just need to "man-up" and realize "Hey, this is what it was like to see a movie in 1949. Hell, be thankful the print looks as good as it does - many of those reels looked like they had been unspooled on a beach by the time they got to your local movie house back then.

Posted by Deathtongue_Groupie at February 1, 2009 12:54 PM

comment #10

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

Deathtongue, I own the single disc release of Heat but rented the special edition a few years ago - am pretty sure it's the same transfer with maybe a minor tweak here or there. Most of the reviews indicated it was at best a minor improvement. Regardless, I think you'd agree that a well authored blu-ray release of this title would blow either DVD out of the water.

Also, the colorization analogy isn't perfect. Grain removal is a completely different animal than converting shades of gray to color. They're qualitatively different changes. Grain removal can be done incrementally, and a tasteful and subtle application of such could make for a more visually pleasing but still "authentic" presentation that is still plausibly consistent with the director's vision of the film. My problem is that I just don't trust the fuckers to get it right.

Posted by NotImpressed1Yet at February 1, 2009 1:28 PM

comment #11

Chase Kahn says ...

'Zhivago' would be a good addition to my "most wanted" list.

Reminds me: I need to pick up 'Zodiac' on Blu...

Posted by Chase Kahn at February 1, 2009 1:48 PM

comment #12

Deathtongue_Groupie says ...

NotImpressed - Jeff's argument was that given the option, the original filmmakers would have opted for the best film stocks to give them the cleanest, ungrainiest image. Hence it is exactly the same logic that would also dictate that give the option many would have loved to have shot in color as well.

Posted by Deathtongue_Groupie at February 1, 2009 2:19 PM

comment #13

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

True enough Deathtongue, I suppose, but just because there is equivalency between shooting in color and better film stock, in the sense that they are both technological advances, that doesn't mean there's the same equivalency between colorization and grain removal, for the reasons I got into in my earlier post.

Or let me put it to you another way. What would you rather watch, a grainless version of The Third Man or a colorized version of Citizen Kane?

Posted by NotImpressed1Yet at February 1, 2009 3:09 PM

comment #14

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

NotImpressed - Uh, neither.

Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at February 1, 2009 5:28 PM

comment #15

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

Ha ha but I know you get my point.

Posted by NotImpressed1Yet at February 1, 2009 6:06 PM

comment #16

Doug Pratt says ...

Okay Jeffrey,
There are two types of home video enthusiasts. One is the type that goes to Blockbuster a couple of times a week and picks up popular films to watch with friends and so forth. So long as the image on the screen is too distorted, they're satisfied.
The other type wants to re-create as faithfully as possible the theatrical experience in the home. In the old days they had real projectors and screens, but now, thanks to the video revolution it is much less of a hassle. With a well made Blu-ray, especially, you can get a solid, error-free image and a detailed, full throttle soundtrack that is in essence better than all theatrical presentations except for a handful of premier theaters.
What is really remarkable about Criterion's The Third Man--and it is something that is not duplicated by Warner's Casablanca--is that it seems to have brokent through some sort of barrier. It isn't regressing to a grainier image, it is going past the artificial gloss and buffing. When you put it up side by side with the DVD, it is immediately apparent that Criterion's DVD is not delivering the same detail or subtleties in lighting or texture that the Blu-ray is delivering. Nor, for that matter, is the sound quite as solid or confident. Most most important of all, you really get the illusion that you are watching the film in a theater and not on your television. It's the Holy Grail, it's within your grasp, but because you are a non-believer, your kingdom will continue to lay fallow. That is, of course, unless you're the other type of viewer, in which case it doesn't matter.

Posted by Doug Pratt at February 1, 2009 8:11 PM

comment #17

Doug Pratt says ...

whoops--"So long as the screen isn't too distorted"

Posted by Doug Pratt at February 1, 2009 8:17 PM

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This is an excellent discussion and one of the reasons I keep visiting HE.

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Edward says ...

This is an excellent discussion and one of the reasons I continue to visit HE.

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Dear Grain Hater,

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