comment #1

Doug Pratt says ...

In contrast, here is a link to what South Park thinks Steven Spielberg and George Lucas have been doing to Indiana Jones lately

http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/1208/The-China-Probrem.html

comment #2

Jason says ...

Has anybody ever received a hat tip from Jeff for sending him a link? Maybe I don't want one. It's too emotionally vivid.

comment #3

Mr. F. says ...

What's amazing is how things have changed so drastically. Reading this transcript, Lucas is the one with sound story sense, coming up with just about all the good ideas for Raiders... while Spielberg's ideas are pretty nonsensical and gimmicky.

Strange to see that Lucas is the one reining in Spielberg on Raiders, and that the latter's ideas (mine car chase, for example) were used in the disappointing Temple of Doom. (Don't get me wrong -- it's effective as an actioner, and lots of fun at times... but it's nowhere near the movie that Raiders is.)

Also surprising? Kasdan hardly speaks up. Can't blame him...

comment #4

Sabina E says ...

that was hella cool. I especially love the part about the "don't worry about camels being expensive" part.

what happened, Lucas? where did your creativity go?

comment #5

Jack South P.I. says ...

Anyone who wants the transcript should download it ASAP. In my experience, Sendspace ftp links expire rather quickly.

comment #6

shermy says ...

Spielberg came up with many of Indy 4's most hated elements- especially the comedic bits- yet everyone just naturally assumed that Lucas was to blame. Prior to the film's release, Spielberg even admitted that he would often joke with his editor, "Am I taking the comedy too far in this scene?"

This is also evident when comparing the two versions of the infamous "fridge" scene. Lucas originally wrote it with Jeb Stuart back in 1995. In his version, Indy combined the fridge with a cellar, in an attempt to create a makeshift bomb shelter. Spielberg is the one who thought the fridge should actually take flight, before coming to rest via a series of bone-crunching bounces.

comment #7

JT says ...

Still havein't seen Indy4, probably never will.

comment #8

Ryansi51 says ...

JT-

Seriously, don't. it's awful and i hate it more every time i think about it.

comment #9

D.Z. says ...

shermy: Spielberg was still willing to take a chance on Darabont, though, which gives him more cred than Lucas.

Anyway, http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118001061.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

Rourke might be in Rambo V. http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/13501/thor-pirates-sword-rambo-cast-rumors/

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118001049.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118001059.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118001052.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

comment #10

JT says ...

thanks for the warning. I'm pretty good about keeping away from these franchises when they turn south. Never saw T3 or the TV show either. Why mess with canon?

comment #11

Gaydos says ...

Roughly the same time as this epic of film culture was being born, these films were also underway: Blier's "Get Out Your Handkerchiefs," Olmi's "Tree of the Wooden Clogs," Bergman's "Autumn Sonata," Malick's "Days of Heaven," Schepisi's "Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith," Oshima's "In the Realm of Passion," "Ashby's "Coming Home," Skolimowski's "The Shout," Karel Reisz's "Who'll Stop the Rain."

Keep discussing. I'll just keep myself busy over here.....

comment #12

nemo says ...

Be sure you skip the Godfather III as well.

I am always amazed whenever I hear about how shitty the later Indiana Jones and Star Wars movies are. I saw the originals of both franchises and couldn't stand them. If the later installments are shitty by comparison, they must be transcendentaly, incandescently shitty.

comment #13

shermy says ...

shermy: Spielberg was still willing to take a chance on Darabont, though, which gives him more cred than Lucas.

But technically, they both took a chance on Darabont when they hired him to write a script. His finished product just wasn't that good- reading more like fan fic than a 1950s B movie.

comment #14

D.Z. says ...

No, I'd have to say the SW prequels are more like fanfics than the Darabont Indy 4.

comment #15

shermy says ...

I don't really see much distinction between the two. Darabont filled the script with recycled dialogue, situations, and in-jokes from Raiders. He even had one character invoke the tagline for Temple of Doom- several times!

I'm not surprised it was rejected. He had been hired to write an Indy film in the style of an old B movie. Instead, he was all over the map- trying to homage just about every style but that of 1950s sci-fi. The end result was a script containing the same flaws as Indy 4 (ie. goofy comedy; implausible stunts; too many characters; etc.), yet none of the B movie charm.

Consider: Indy 4 opened with the hero being literally taken out of mothballs, as a group of Russian soldiers pulled him from a car's trunk.

Darabont opened the film with Indy in a roadside diner, listening to a Russian talk about ketchup.

comment #16

D.Z. says ...

"Indy 4 opened with the hero being literally taken out of mothballs, as a group of Russian soldiers pulled him from a car's trunk.

"Darabont opened the film with Indy in a roadside diner, listening to a Russian talk about ketchup."

I'll have to go with the Darabont approach. The Lucas approach makes me think of some stupid geek jab at Han Solo getting old.

comment #17

cinefan says ...

I'm guessing that Kasden's contribution to the film was largely the script's dialogue, which does contain a number of great and memorable lines ("It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage", "I hate snakes, Jacques, I hate them!") and influenced later action films like Die Hard.

comment #18

cinefan says ...

Kasdan, not Kasden

comment #19

DavidF says ...

For all the talk of the Darabont script and how upset to whole AICN community was when it was ditched....when it leaked and I read it, I was not impressed.

It had at least as many flaws as KOTCS and given the pedigree of the writer, that's quite a disappointment. Some good stuff, sure, but overall? Meh.

I recall a leak a few years ago - and I forget if it was a Boam script or fan fic - about Noa's Ark, and I remember that being better than the Darabont draft.

Lastly - since his own movies have been all over the map it is worth us all taking a moment to remember that Kasdan is the primo screenwriter on what are generally considered among the two best genre pictures in film history.

If only he'd been brought in on the prequels I think I could have taken Lucas's ideas and produced something really fine...

comment #20

DavidF says ...

And once again, DZ is wrong.

If the SW prequels were "fanfic" they would have started with Obi Wan and Anakin fighting, maybe flashed back to some happier times, and then showed 6 hours of Vader suiting up killing different Jedi.

There are some great elements of the prequels but Lucas had no one to get rid of the bad ideas or reign him in: midicholrians and Anakin building C-3PO are not on this list of good ideas.

At the end of the day, he's right that he can paint his house whatever damn colour he wants and as long as it's him doing the painting, it ain't fanfic.

comment #21

shermy says ...

For all the talk of the Darabont script and how upset to whole AICN community was when it was ditched....when it leaked and I read it, I was not impressed.

It had at least as many flaws as KOTCS and given the pedigree of the writer, that's quite a disappointment. Some good stuff, sure, but overall? Meh.

If filmed, the Darabont script would've lost its biggest appeal: The fact that it was rejected by Lucas.

People that hated Indy 4 would have hated Darabont's version. It had the same over-the-top flaws, and it some cases, even bigger ones. Once the giant snake showed up and swallowed Indy whole, all bets would've been off.

As you said, it was surprisingly weak for a writer like Darabont. If there is a "one that got away" sitting out there for Indy 4, it has a better chance of being the one Jeffrey Boam wrote for them back in the late 90s.

(Although, that wasn't the fan script, "Sons of Darkness". To be honest, I didn't care much for that one, either.)

comment #22

D.Z. says ...

David: "I recall a leak a few years ago - and I forget if it was a Boam script or fan fic - about Noa's Ark, and I remember that being better than the Darabont draft."

If it was really better, it wouldn't be another ark story.

"If the SW prequels were "fanfic" they would have started with Obi Wan and Anakin fighting, maybe flashed back to some happier times, and then showed 6 hours of Vader suiting up killing different Jedi."

No, that's what people wanted to see. Fanfic is what people ended up seeing, which is why you get stupid pointless characters like Jar Jar, and awful love stories between Anakin and Padme.

shermy: "People that hated Indy 4 would have hated Darabont's version."

Doubtful, since Darabont's version would have at least had Connery.

comment #23

Gordon27 says ...

"If it was really better, it wouldn't be another ark story."

DZ, are you seriously trying to argue that Darabont's script which everybody has read isn't a piece of shit? I'm not surprised; that script would make even you look intelligent.

"No, that's what people wanted to see."

Yes, that's why he's saying that's "fanfic", because it's the fiction the fans would've written.

"Doubtful, since Darabont's version would have at least had Connery. "

You mean it would've had Henry Jones, Sr. Connery's retired enough that even Lucas couldn't buy him out.

comment #24

Gordon27 says ...

JT - I don't think it's fair to lump 'T3' in with 'Crystal Skull', 'Godfather 3' and the 'Star Wars' prequels. It's a dumb movie, but it's at least dumb fun, unlike all the other movies mentioned. It's more like the 'Temple of Doom' of Terminator movies. There's a really ridiculous, completely over-the-top chase scene that lasts for probably 20 minutes, starting at night time and going until the sun is up; if it doesn't bring a goofy smile to your face, you're taking the Terminator franchise too seriously.

comment #25

D.Z. says ...

Gordon: "DZ, are you seriously trying to argue that Darabont's script which everybody has read isn't a piece of shit?"

Compared to what we got stuck with, yes.

"Yes, that's why he's saying that's "fanfic", because it's the fiction the fans would've written."

No, the fans would probably waste time with the extraneous dialogue and emo posturing which padded the films in place of the adventure.

"You mean it would've had Henry Jones, Sr. Connery's retired enough that even Lucas couldn't buy him out."

I imagine he was thinking, "Why go for a crappy Lucas script, when I already have Xardoz and LXG under my belt?"

comment #26

D.Z. says ...

*Zardoz*

comment #27

shermy says ...

Doubtful, since Darabont's version would have at least had Connery.

Well, it would've had Connery reduced to two brief scenes...one of which required him to sing at Indy's wedding. (As John Hurt sat at a table, making the silverware dance with his mind.)

In other words, a great character like Henry Jones Sr. would've been sidelined, in a story filled with uninteresting ones. The main villain was Marion's boyfriend, while Indy's sidekick was- amazingly- even worse than the one in Indy 4.

I'm just not convinced that- had Darabont's script actually been used- you would have been so eager to defend a (post-prequel) Lucas film.

comment #28

D.Z. says ...

shermy: That would have at least been more fun than him on a friggin' picture frame. And Indy's sidekick in the script didn't pull out a comb and try to pick up his hat and try it on, so that's good enough for me.

comment #29

prairie_oysters says ...

It's a fascinating document. And as others have pointed out it seems to show a role reversal with Lucas being the pragmatic, efficient story teller and Spielberg the hyperactive but vacuous gimmicks man.

A telling moment is in the discussion over the tomb where the ark lies and as Spielberg starts to hyperventilate over the appearance of a pair of king cobras George interjects with "there will be NO mechanical snakes in THIS movie".

If only he'd shown the same wariness towards CGI creatures as he had towards mechanical ones...

There's an interesting interview online with Gary Kurtz over at IGN where he calls out Raiders of the Lost Ark at signalling the 'beginning of the end' for Lucas;
http://uk.movies.ign.com/articles/376/376873p1.html

"I think the most unfortunate thing that happened was the fact that Indiana Jones came along, and Raiders of the Lost Ark had come out in between. George and I had many, many discussions about that, but it boiled down to the fact that he became convinced that all the audience was interested in was the roller-coaster ride, and so the story and the script didn't matter anymore.

Now Raiders is not a bad film, but the script actually was much better than the finished film. There were a lot more nuances in the character, and there was less action. It would've been a better picture if that script had been made. But, as it is, it's an interesting and entertaining film -- it's just that this idea that somehow the energy doesn't have to be put into getting really good story elements together. One of the arguments that I had with George about Empire was the fact that he felt in the end, he said, we could have made just as much money if the film hadn't been quite so good, and you hadn't spent so much time. And I said, "But it was worth it!""

comment #30

shermy says ...

And Indy's sidekick in the script didn't pull out a comb and try to pick up his hat and try it on, so that's good enough for me.

I was referring to Darabont's "Yuri", who was essentially a precursor to Indy 4's "Mac".

I'm not sure why you didn't like the "hat trick", since it was clearly aimed at debunking all the "Shia will take over" rumors. When Ford takes his fedora back, it's actually one of the best parts of the film. Very true to the spirit of the originals.