Jezebel Slapdown

Jezebel‘s weekend editor got pretty angry at Saturday’s “Just Hot Enough” piece and went after me pretty savagely in a Sunday piece called “Jeffrey Wells: ‘Life Would Be Heavenly And Rhapsodic If Women Had The Personality And Temperament Of Dogs.'”

I posted a reply on Jezebel but this is just a variation on the old line that reads “if you want a friend get a dog.” We all know what this means. Hetero relationships are always being reassessed and renegotiated. Your stock goes up or down with your wife/girlfriend depending on various evolving factors. People fall out of love in relationships. (And sometimes back in love.) Ardor fades. People get fat, lose jobs, lose their love of life and sometimes turn to drink. Expectations are unmet and disappointment ensues. All to say that “love” is definitely conditional. Whatever kind of “love” you and your significant other have going right now is not necessarily going to be there tomorrow or next week, let alone a year or two from now. Nothing new in this.

The point is that dogs are cool with you no matter what. What’s so godawful in dreaming about unmuddled loyalty and unmitigated affection from a mate? Everyone does this, however unrealistic.

Anyway, here’s what I wrote this morning:

Jeffrey Wells to Hortense:

I think you’re being somewhat strident here. You’re flying off the handle and you’re not being fair. The proof is that you’re selectively quoting from my piece. You’re posting only the pizazz lines without considering the modifiers. And that’s not cool or professional.

Is it really that sexist or crazy to say that life or biology is unfair or unequal according to certain tastes and standards? We all know that it is. Some of us are generally considered more attractive than others. Most if not all of us would agree that, say, the young Helen Thomas isn’t/wasn’t as conventionally alluring or fetching as, let’s say, Michelle Obama or Angelina Jolie or whomever. You know what I mean.

All I said was that many of us refer to certain measurings and gradations of allure and attractiveness, obviously based on our own standards. That’s shocking to you? Are you going tell me that women don’t rate guys according to looks (among other attributes)? Please!

A person who fails to look within and beyond what a person looks like is truly walking around blind and polluting the world with their short-sightedness. I learned this when I was seven years old, and it’s really quite unfair and malicious of you to try and paint me with this brush.

I would ask that you not only read what I wrote more carefully, but quote from the piece more fairly.

What I wrote was inspired by having seen Neil LaBute‘s “reasons to be pretty”…a great play. (Have you seen it? Something tells me that Jezebel readers are persuaded that a LaBute is a ferocious woman hater and that his plays are therefore off-limits.) I won’t get into the whole LaBute thing but you really should see the play.

My piece was basically a sympathetic rationale for the lead male character in the play having called his longtime girlfriend “normal.” I don’t believe that he used the word “normal” in a malicious way and I was trying to cut him a break or at least explain how how it might not have been meant as a hurtful remark.

You didn’t quote a key line in the piece which acknowledged that “most of us think of ‘normal’ as one step up from homely — obviously a hurtful thing to say about anyone.” That’s a fairly central and fundamental statement to make in such a piece, wouldn’t you say? That it’s wrong and cruel to hurt people’s feelings, and we all should refrain from it? But you left this out.

What I wrote, to repeat, was basically a positive spin on that “normal” remark, saying or rationalizing that “calling a woman a B-type can be, in a manner of speaking, a kind of compliment.”

I tried to explain why describing a woman as a B or a high-C can be seen as a kind of compliment — because one is saying in effect “that the woman in question probably has good internal qualities as well as looks. You’re saying that she’s probably a good person inside, good all around the track, keeper material, etc.”

I began the piece by referring to two well-known quotes. Albert Brooks‘ character voiced the first in Broadcast News: “Always choose a woman who’s just hot enough to turn you on.”

Brooks could have continued by saying, “Reach a little bit higher than that and you’re flirting with trouble. Go much higher than that and you’re flat-out asking for it.”

Do you honestly think that James L. Brooks is a sexist dog also?

Do you honestly think that there is something deeply flawed and repulsive about a guy who would say this or feel there is merit in this view? Honestly — it feels like I’m in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban. You guys are rabid about such matters.

The other quote is from a famous early ’60s Jimmy Soul tune that goes “if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, don’t make a pretty woman your wife.” It’s an old pop tune that people laughed at way back when because they knew there was a grain of truth in it. Or at least a grain of truth according to experience.

Drop-dead attractive women tend to get more from life and tend to expect more from it. They live, think, assess and strategize according to the laws of their own realm. Me me me me me. Condo condo condo condo. Money money money money. Better apparel, better cell phone, better vacation next year, better private school for my seven year-old etc. “A woman must have everything” — Joni Mitchell.

Women who are not quite in the A-level magazine-cover class (in a good way!) therefore tend to be less of a handful, perhaps a tad less obsessive or myopic, a tad more accommodating or down-to-earth. Not necessarily (exceptions abound!) but more often than not. That is what life has taught me.

I was only trying to point out that views of this sort have a historical cultural basis and that it’s not a totally wackjob thing to try and rephrase these views and explain where they come from.

You didn’t quote this line either: “I’m not saying you can’t be perfectly happy with a triple-A or a double-A — I’m saying that happiness odds increase when you drop down into the B and high-C categories. Every now and then you’ll get lucky and meet a lovely, spiritually attractive, good-for-the-soul A-minus woman, but the odds don’t favor it.”

I’m not talking out of some bent prejudice — I’m honestly sharing what I believe based on life experience. Bs and high Cs can be less problematic than As, and particularly AAs and AAAs.

You seem to be saying, Hortense, that it’s horrid to even think of women as AAs or high Cs or whatever — that visual impressions should be tossed out the window at the get-go and that ONLY spiritual and emotional issues and ones relating to character and intestinal fortitude be considered. Well, that would certainly be a better way of assessing people of either gender. Look beyond the flesh and bone and into their souls. I agree with this.

Thank God there are millions of us who immediately try to learn who and what a person is when they meet them, and who give physical attractiveness its proper due, which is that it’s nice and pleasing to be with a physically attractive person (not to mention stimulating) but that this is hardly — shouldn’t be — any sort of final determining factor. I’m with you, Hortense. I get it. You’re right.

Except that guys — hang onto something for balance — have always and will always be attracted to beautiful or provocative women, and once you accept this as inevitable and unstoppable it’s hardly a terrible thing to admit that most of us keep score and hand out school grades about the allure & attractiveness of various women we meet.

I think…hell, I know that most women know and accept this. I also think that this acceptance and awareness might have something to do with the fact that women spend God knows how many billions each year on products and services that enhance and augment their natural physical beauty. What do you think…maybe?

You also didn’t quote a line that said “thank God for life’s exceptions” and another that said that “my last serious relationship was with a solid A and she was fine all around for the most part.” Uh-oh — a quote that indicates that a fair-minded and balanced mentality may be at work here! Strike it!

I also said that “people only develop emotionally and spiritually when they’ve been forced to, and a certain working familiarity with rejection among women or men obviously tends to encourage this.” I would really appreciate an explanation from you, Hortense, about how this statement is inaccurate. I’m all ears.

  • Sabina E

    I don’t understand why many women are offended by that post you wrote. You were only stating the truth. The world revolves around sex and beauty. That’s how the world works. Life’s not fair, but oh well.

    Except guys have always and will always be attracted to beautiful or provocative women, and once you accept this as inevitable and unstoppable it’s hardly a terrible thing to admit that most of us keep score and hand out school grades about the allure & attractiveness of various women we meet.

    yeah, exactly. Some of us are REALLY that lucky if we could meet a nice, decent guy who cares more about our personalities and brains than our looks and bodies, but it’s not as rare as some women think.

    Let’s face it, sooner or later, we’ll all get bored with our partner(s). If he gains weight and becomes fat, how many women can say they’ll still find him attractive? It’s only natural that if a woman gains weight and starts dressing down, the man might no longer find her sexy anymore, he’ll start looking somewhere else. Hey, don’t beat down on me, I’m only stating a fact.

    Anyway, women who whine about dating sexist assholes are idiots who just don’t want to date nice guys. How about dating a nice guy for once?

    The same goes for whiney males who just won’t date anyone except stupid, shallow bimbos with big fake boobs and blonde hair. I have this friend who keeps dating bimbos (girly-girl types) and he’s always crying and complaining what a dumb bitch, annoying lying whore she is and that she wants his money. To which I have replied, “then why do you keep dating the same type of girl over and over?”

  • Sabina E

    anyway, fuck Hortense. that silly cow got me banned from Jezebel last year, just for being honest and expressing my opinion. Yep, I said it.

  • cinefan

    It’s clear from reading Hortense’s article that she doesn’t realize that a high number of women do the exact same thing when it comes to ranking men. If a woman had to choose between a manipulative, lying jerk who looks like Brad Pitt or a wonderful, kind-hearted man who looks Jonah Hill, who is she going to choose? I think maybe 1% of women at most would choose the latter over the former.

  • BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey

    Because women never grade men on their looks. It’s not like People magazine releases a list every year featuring a countdown of the sexiest men alive ranked in order of hotness.

  • Sabina E

    hey now, now, cinefan, what makes you think Brad Pitt is a manipulative, lying jerk and that Jonah Hill isn’t?

    Eh, you’re right, I’d gladly choose Pitt over Hill. The latter looks like a white male version of Jabba the Hutt without the slobber and drool. Yuck.

  • BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey

    Jonah Hill has piled on the pounds lately. He was fat anyway but now he’s really quite giant. I think Seth Rogen donated his lost weight to Hill.

    Women are also dreadful to each other when it comes to rating appearance. Pick up any style/gossip magazine and you’ll see unflattering photos of celebs at the beach, with magnified views of their cellulite and some snarky putdown next to it. “Yuk! This celeb is fat! Gross!”

    Women are more obsessed with appearance than men ever will be. Rather than getting upset at Wells, perhaps Jezebel should turn their attentions to InStyle or Us Weekly.

  • Admiral82

    Someone needs to look past their own “image.”

    Take some fucking humility classes.

    Who are you? What do you stand for? Are you a real person? Or are you some under-cooked idea of what you perceive to be unique and hip?

    Grow up! Seriously, GROW THE FUCK UP!

    You have no concept of what is real….. You come off very fake and shallow. I hope this side doesn’t translate into your real life.

  • Jeffrey Wells

    Yes, I do — I do have a very clear understanding of what is real and what constitutes genuine humility and compassion. I didn’t refer to my image at all in the above piece. What are you on about?

  • Admiral82

    Whoa… sorry bro. I wasn’t talking to you. I was referring to one of your talk-backers. The one who seemingly hasn’t the faintest about “genuine humility and compassion.” Apologies…

    Your analysis was spot on Jeff. As was your retort for that matter.

  • Sabina E

    hey, Wells, I wasn’t sure if Admiral was talking to me or to you. Haha.

    BoshBarnet, sadly, you are right about many women being vicious to each other. I hate that shit. I don’t think women should tear each other down. I have no time for drama bullshit.

    Fortunately, many of my female friends aren’t like that, but that might be because I don’t associate myself with catty females, anyway.

    and BoshBarnet, have you read Jezebel? They always talk about Us Weekly and other tabloids. I was glad anyway when that silly cow banned me from their shitty website. They are too obsessed with tabloids and celebrities. I’ll take Gawker over Jezebel anytime.

  • Abbey Normal

    Man, I don’t envy you today, Wells. It can’t be pleasant to get pecked by these shrill hens with such vicious enthusiasm.

    I get why a woman would be pissed at selective chunks of your article (particularly the “dogs” comment, and no, it doesn’t matter if it’s a quote from somewhere else because you didn’t put it in quotes. They’re your words now).

    But come on. You were obviously NOT saying that ALL women can be defined this way. There are exceptions, as there are always exceptions. On the whole however, we all know it to be true that women who are more conventionally attractive have it easier than the ones that don’t, and that this often impacts personality.

    And if that state of affairs is upsetting for women, then they need to look into the mirror a bit. Because as someone else pointed out, women are often very, very cruel to each other in judging physical appearance. I would guess that one of the reasons “A”-level attractive women often end up being kind of damaged is partially because of other women constantly tearing them down behind their backs. To then go on and try to say that the whole grading thing is shallow (and yeah, maybe it is a bit) ignores the fact that women do THE SAME GODDAMN THING ALL THE TIME, maybe with even more gusto than men.

    Feminists like to blame men for the troubles of women, but women have their own shallow ideas about perfection and beauty that have nothing to do with men. I would have more respect for their arguments if they could muster a more honest look at the role their own gender plays.

  • DeafBrownTrashPunk

    I don’t understand why many women are offended by that post you wrote. You were only stating the truth. The world revolves around sex and beauty. That’s how the world works. Life’s not fair, but oh well.

    Except guys have always and will always be attracted to beautiful or provocative women, and once you accept this as inevitable and unstoppable it’s hardly a terrible thing to admit that most of us keep score and hand out school grades about the allure & attractiveness of various women we meet.

    yeah, exactly. Some of us are REALLY that lucky if we could meet a nice, decent guy who cares more about our personalities and brains than our looks and bodies, but it’s not as rare as some women think.

    Let’s face it, sooner or later, we’ll all get bored with our partner(s). If he gains weight and becomes fat, how many women can say they’ll still find him attractive? It’s only natural that if a woman gains weight and starts dressing down, the man might no longer find her sexy anymore, he’ll start looking somewhere else. Hey, don’t beat down on me, I’m only stating a fact.

    Anyway, women who whine about dating sexist assholes are idiots who just don’t want to date nice guys. How about dating a nice guy for once?

    The same goes for whiney males who just won’t date anyone except stupid, shallow bimbos with big fake boobs and blonde hair. I have this friend who keeps dating bimbos (girly-girl types) and he’s always crying and complaining what a dumb bitch, annoying lying whore she is and that she wants his money. To which I have replied, “then why do you keep dating the same type of girl over and over?”

  • DeafBrownTrashPunk

    anyway, fuck Hortense. that silly cow got me banned from Jezebel last year, just for being honest and expressing my opinion. Yep, I said it.

  • Abbey Normal

    Addendum regarding the “dogs” comment: You should know from When Harry Met Sally that women do not like being compared to dogs in any way shape or form.

  • ErrantElan

    It’s strange. I’ve had so many conversations with so many different people in so many different walks-of-life, and I consistently find that the only group more prone to irrational excess, denial of objective truth, dishonest arguments (i.e. strawmen), or outright self-delusion than the highly religious are, indeed, a certain swath of “fundamentalist” feminists.

    It’s like entering a different brainworld, arguing with them. Similar to arguing with neo-cons, only, I’d humbly posit, even more surreal.

  • Jeffrey Wells

    Well said, ErrantElan. But are the Jezebel-lers fundamentalist feminists? They’ve always struck me as hipper and more worldly than that.

  • DeafBrownTrashPunk

    hey now, now, cinefan, what makes you think Brad Pitt is a manipulative, lying jerk and that Jonah Hill isn’t?

    Eh, you’re right, I’d gladly choose Pitt over Hill. The latter looks like a white male version of Jabba the Hutt without the slobber and drool. Yuck.

  • ErrantElan

    Jeff, they’ve always struck me the same way (I like their site), and I wouldn’t categorize Jezebel as typically representative of that brand of feminism, no. But this specific instance (response to your very well-reasoned and delicately, thoughtfully expressed post) sure smacks of it to me! It’s disappointing.

  • Floyd Thursby

    Over the past forty years, women have written many more negative things about men than we have about them, mostly about how brutish or wimpy or immature we are, about how much more we love sports, pets (go, dogs, go), toys (cars, big-screen TVs, etc.), and overindulgence on food and drink than we do them. That they’re right doesn’t minimize their obsession with our shortcomings. We’re never going to grow up. We’re never gonna change. Get over it.

  • MB

    cinefan, Jezebel critiques InStyle and Us and other fashion and gossip magazines on a regular basis.

  • ErrantElan

    Interesting, Floyd, but I think it goes deeper than that. Men may be more interested in sports, cars, toys, and alcohol than women, by and large (though I’d argue on alcohol), but those are just cultural things. There’s nothing intrinsic to the male being (biological, psychological, evolutionary) that makes them love cars or sports. Indeed, many men don’t really have interest in those things. That’s a case of nurture (environment, being raised to have interest in sports) rather than nature.

    I think the important focus should be on the idea that men ARE biologically and evolutionarily predisposed to judging a woman on physical traits, just as women are similarly, naturally drawn to men of higher status, health, and, yes, better looks. It’s simply a biological truth. To deny this is both irrational and dishonest.

    That is NOT to say, as Jeffrey originally pointed out, that we should simply accept that and play into it. Men, good men, are always struggling to rise above that, to look deeper, to transcend evolutionary impulses. Evolution just is. It happens without thought, morality, or design.

    I don’t think that aforementioned narrow segment of feminists either understand or honestly accept that.

  • AH

    Dogs are the coolest.

  • Josh Massey

    When are we going to drop the myth of Michelle Obama being hot?

  • LexG

    I also want to point out that not only do women judge men on appearance every bit as much (as well as on wealth and status), they do so with ZERO LOGIC OR CONSISTENCY.

    Show 10 straight guys a Maxim spread of Jessica Alba, nine guys will get boners. The tenth guy… let’s just call him Jeff McDouche for the sake of argument, will say, “Oh no, I don’t like her, I prefer Kristen Wiiiiiiiiiiig!” But you know what I’m saying. We may be shallow, but we’re essentially easy to place. And most of us would date the fry cook on McNuggets detail making 6 bucks on hour if she was pretty enough. On the flip side, probably 2% of us would hook up with some cobweb-ridden old broad even if it meant moving into a mansion or driving a flash ride.

    Show 10 straight women a Brad Pitt spread, or Johnny Depp, or Chris Pine, or whoever. You’ll get 10 violently different reactions, some women lusting but just as many others saying things like, “EW, he is SO UGLY, I don’t get it AT ALL. NO. JUST NO.” or “EWWWWW, he left so-and-so for so-and-so, I do NOOOOOOT like him.” Completely arbitrary reactions based on bullshit factors. You think any guy’s gonna turn down Jennifer Love Hewitt because she’s dated and dumped seemingly every costar she’s ever worked with? Who cares??? If she’s hot, she’s hot. How do five women get EW, HE’S GROSS! out of Ryan Gosling and how do the other five automatically want to have his kids? And they certainly think those kind of shallow judgments through just as hard, if not harder, than men to arrive at such conclusions.

  • Abbey Normal

    I’m afraid I agree with LexG. I actually took part in an experiment once that bears his theory out. A website had done a “10 hottest women over 35” piece, and I was discussing it at a restaurant with a group of mostly women. They wanted to see a “10 hottest men over 35” piece, so I watched as the women all started hashing it out to try and come up with a list. They couldn’t.

    The conversation kept breaking down almost exactly along the lines Lex mentions (ridiculous extrapolations about their personal character via the gossip read in celebrity magazines; over-reactions to minor physical issues like “I don’t like his hair” or “he dresses like a slob”; etc). And man, did they argue. Disagreements over certain candidates had an air of condescension and disapproval…a few of them actually got in arguments that you could tell had the potential to get out of hand if it wasn’t happening in a public place.

    Chicks are insane, but what can you do? I love ’em anyway.

  • DeafBrownTrashPunk

    hey, Wells, I wasn’t sure if Admiral was talking to me or to you. Haha.

    BoshBarnet, sadly, you are right about many women being vicious to each other. I hate that shit. I don’t think women should tear each other down. I have no time for drama bullshit.

    Fortunately, many of my female friends aren’t like that, but that might be because I don’t associate myself with catty females, anyway.

    and BoshBarnet, have you read Jezebel? They always talk about Us Weekly and other tabloids. I was glad anyway when that silly cow banned me from their shitty website. They are too obsessed with tabloids and celebrities. I’ll take Gawker over Jezebel anytime.

  • Geez, Jeff, you got that poor Hortense so het up that she referred to the Broadway play “reasons to be pretty” as a film.

    I do love when the Jezebel crew toggles from trite snark to fever-pitched moral indignation. It’s as if there’s nothing they can’t do poorly!

    I have to wonder where they stand on the whole grain issue, though…

  • Movie fan09

    It’s almost kind of a shame you don’t do the chat room or the call in show anymore.

  • KC

    This reads like a 4chan thread about women and their wily ways subjected to some admittedly heavy copy-editing. Not even Something Awful, dudes, 4chan.

  • ErrantElan

    Josh Massey, Michelle Obama seems to be hot to women, and not to men. Just another odd log to add to the fire.

    Does anyone appreciate her toned arms but women and gay men?

  • Wells, apparently. Mrs. Obama is on par with Angelina Jolie.

    If people were sexy because of their political beliefs, I would have spent my teens rubbing one out to Margaret Thatcher. Alas.

  • Sean E

    When are we going to drop the myth of Michelle Obama being hot?

    I just assumed that was blatant pandering to the Jezebel crowd.

  • crazynine

    Wells, you’ve banned me three times in ten years– twice for politics, once because I was an ass. I’m on my fourth (fifth?) pseudonym.

    I fucking hate you. No online author pisses off so damn much. You’re shallow, you’re ridiculous, you’re insufferably arrogant, and your unquestioning culty politics have always struck me as completely moronic and infantile. I only keep coming back because you have interesting, even essential, opinions about movies, and one day I hope to discover that you’re sticking to those.

    Which is all a precursor to what may be the most painful admission I’ve ever made on this site, Wells. Last Saturday’s posting and the one today are the truest words you’ve ever written.

    I’ve NEVER read a posting that long from you, not the Reel.com days, not the Movie Poop Shoot days, and certainly not *these* days in which I’ve agreed 100% with every word you wrote…until that one.

    God, this fucking hurts. I thought I’d never, ever agree with you about anything other than (some) movies.

    But fair is fair– you wrote the hard truth, and the Jezebel crowd is too angry to see that, but even I am not.

    Well played, Wells. Well. Played.

  • Filthy Rich

    Wells has posted variations of his spiritually vacant beautiful women theme in the past and I’ve always more or less agreed with him.

    You can agree or disagree but those who get so offended and cannot help but throw out their shrill ‘you’re a chauvinist’ retorts are the ones that know his ideas are hitting way too close to home.

    Fuck being being politically correct. Wells has the guts to be declare an honest truth when he sees one — and he’s known to be just as hard on himself as on others — and the ones who can’t handle it are the ones who demand women be called the saints they like to pretend they are when in reality they are more superficial and vicious than men.

    Every man — who isn’t a PC pansy — knows this and every woman worth her salt knows it too. I know many women who say they refuse to work in an office full of women because of the petty infighting and eye gouging.

    Hortense is also the type of person who gets offended when a guy says pregnant women aren’t sexy. Sorry, they aren’t, and Wells would be the first guy to tell you so.

    I’m sick of the militant ‘divine female power’ flag waving and the utter dishonest inherent in the attitude. Women aren’t perfect and men aren’t assholes for not pretending that they are.

  • Wow, Filthy Rich sure is funsy.

    Please be advised, however, that the phrase “who isn’t a PC pansy” translates into standard English as “who can’t get any ass on even a semi-regular basis.”

  • Jay T.

    The truth must hurt for the Jezebel crowd. The selective quoting in that response piece was just plain pathetic, as Wells repeatedly went out of his way to point out that he was speaking generally and that there are definitely exceptions. What he said was absolutely 100% true.

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  • Ryan Russo

    Women are rated with B’s and C’s and this sounds interesting to most guys but what matters most is the women inside her. I’m not here on some philosophies and sorry guys I’m talking about morality but are women only sex symbols? Both men and women are equally responsible for the way women are treated today. American women should be happy that they are living in a free land. If we want other people respecting our women I think it should start from here.

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