comment #1

tombstoneblues says ...

"I fully understand and support what's going on right now in the streets of Tehran because I've understood (and, let's face it, practiced) rebellion all my life."

I don't know all that much about your life, but I'm pretty sure you don't understand what is happening in Iran. And no offense, but I don't think commenting on cinema and politics on the internet is even remotely similar to what Mousavi's supporters are doing now.

comment #2

Jeffrey Wells says ...

No, I really do sort of understand what's going in Tehran right now, more or less. I'm not an idiot, I read up on what's happening as much as the next guy and maybe more so, and so, you know...fuck you and your patronizing attitude. Fair enough?

comment #3

erniesouchak says ...

Your revulsion at what you saw in the film doesn't make you "an honorary right-winger." It means you're civilized.

comment #4

Travis Crabtree says ...

Though I didn't vote for him, (no, I don't hate him, I just liked McCain better...sue me), one of the best things about Obama being elected president is the fact that we can look at, have an opinion on and yes, actually judge some of the despicable behavior that is done in the name of radical Islam without being labeled a "war-mongering, neo-con, Jew puppet".

It's not a Republican or Democrat thing to be horrified and deeply concerned with the spread of totalitarianism based on a radical, violent interpretation of fundamentalist Islam.

(insert response stating that Christianity is just as oppressive and violent as radical Islam blah blah blah here)

comment #5

tombstoneblues says ...

I wasn't criticizing your ability to watch CNN. I was saying that your language made it sound like you could understand their rebellion because of your own rebellions, whatever they might be. If you were trying to say this, I think it is an arrogant and condescending thing to say. If not, I apologize for bringing this up in the first place.

comment #6

Scott Mendelson says ...

Immediately after 9/11, Bill Maher had a handful of discussions on Politically Incorrect about how we on the left could still be our lefty tolerant selves and still admit that our western culture was better in some ways. In our bid to be uber-sensitive and uber-tolerant, we sometimes have a problem coming out and saying that someone else's culture is wrong. Come what may, the west (in general) doesn't do stonings and honor killings, and we should feel no shame criticizing people from all walks of life who do.

comment #7

BadHatHarry says ...

Well, you've very succinctly demonstrated the key reason so many conservatives are head-smackingly frustrated with so many liberals on this issue (and all its sundries: Iraq, 9/11, etc. ad nauseam).

In your subjective, comfortable cocoon, built and maintained by the sturdiness of western civilization, you have become so far removed from the realities outside that cocoon that you can't believe the truth when you hear it.

You say: [i]"This happened on the planet Earth? Certain human beings of an Islamic stripe actually do this to women from time to time?" It felt beyond cold, beyond malignant.[/i]

Now you know how I felt when I woke up out of my liberal coma about 8 years ago and started reading beyond the New York Times. Presuppositions like the ones you express can only exist in an ignorant environment. But maybe this movie has pried back at least the edge of the scales on your eyes. Maybe it will be just a tad less easy for you to be so reflexively hateful toward anyone more conservative than you.

Keep thinking, I'm rooting for you.

comment #8

PopcornEyeglass says ...

Wells, your comparison of yourself to the Iranians strikes me as more than a little Hoekstra-esque:

http://hoekstraisameme.com/

comment #9

Steven Kar says ...

Apt, Popcorn.

comment #10

OtownRog says ...

Travis makes a good point about the license having Obama in the White House seems to give us. Sometimes, we ARE faced with barbarians. Woman-hating, superstitious hooligans with AK-47s and an ignorance that seems Dark Ages in its malignancy.
I was a bit creeped out by the film's An American Carol/The Path to 9/11-The Passion of the Christ ties. (check out the director/producer/composer/co-star credits).
It has an agenda, even if, in this case, I happen to buy into that agenda.

comment #11

Steven Kar says ...

"Woman-hating, superstitious hooligans with AK-47s"

You mean half of the US?

comment #12

OtownRog says ...

And Brother Wells, I think the point Brother Tombstone was making was that your original post has a taste of what Jon Stewart found so funny in all those GOP-ers tweeting how THEY were equivalent to Tehran's oppressed minority. Unless you were at Kent State there's little in the American "rebel" experience that can equate with what they're going through over there, the suicidal choices facing those who take to the streets.

comment #13

SpinDozer says ...

'Who are these men?'

Conservatives

comment #14

Wrecktem says ...

Jeffrey Wells: budding neocon.

comment #15

Travis Crabtree says ...

SpinDozer and Steven Kar... you've hit the nail right on the head.

Nice work.

I'd like to write more, but I'm heading out right now. Over in Bakersfield they're getting ready to beat to death a 12 year old girl who's been found guilty on seven counts of being raped, one count of being educated and three counts of having a vagina. I got my whoopin' stick. Should be fun!

It's true. We really are no better than they are.

comment #16

SpinDozer says ...

So Yearning for Zion has a Bakersfield branch. Who knew?

comment #17

Travis Crabtree says ...

Ahh, the sweet smell of moral relativism.

"Hey, SpinDozer. Radical Islamists just sawed off the head of American journalist Daniel Pearl as he begged for his life. Isn't that awful?"

"Hmm. Well, he was Jewish afterall. Besides, Jerry Falwell just said that one of the Teletubbies is gay. I mean really, who are we to judge?"

comment #18

Wrecktem says ...

Wells, I do expect more from you in the future. You're basically admitting that horrific crimes perpetrated by people of another culture doesn't fit into your worldview, so you propose ignoring the feelings it provokes. Weak. Stand up for your beliefs, man.

comment #19

SpinDozer says ...

Ahh, the sweet smell of moral absolutism.

Tell us Trav, which kind of ASSHOLE are you? The ASSHOLE that says Yearning for Zion isn't conservative? Or the kind of ASSHOLE that says without the limitations of government, that Yearning for Zion wouldn't eventually expand its control of Pussy by stonings?

Tell us that the US overthrow of Iran's democratically elected leader in 1953 had absolutely nothing to do with the Iranian Revolution of 79 or that establishing an Islamic based resistance to the Soviets had nothing to do with 9/11. Cos that's exactly what you'll need to do in order to bear the white man's burden with the ease you have postured until now.

comment #20

Travis Crabtree says ...

Glad that you can talk about this with such civility, SpinDozer.

First off, why don't you tell me and all of us what the hell this Yearning for Zion bullshit is that you seem to have such a hard-on for because I've never even heard of them.

And..... oh fuck you... you're a complete waste of time....

I'll concede.... since America has done bad things in the past, I therefore withdraw any comment or opinion I have over so-called "honor killings". I mean come on, it's not like those girls didn't have it comin'. They were born without penises, afterall. Death to Israel, too, while we're at it.

Worthless punk.

comment #21

SpinDozer says ...

'why don't you tell me and all of us what the hell this Yearning for Zion bullshit is (?) '

Try google, dummy. Not all news cums from Fox.

comment #22

Travis Crabtree says ...

You fucked up, Spin. You fucked up BAD. You said Fox. It should be Faux or Fox Noise Channel. Not Fox. Come on, man, that's a rookie mistake. Focus.

And I'm a moral absolutist for thinking that there is something terribly wrong in a society that condones the flogging or stoning to death of young girls for the crime of being victims of gang rape.

Okay. I guess I'm a moral absolutist. Works for me.

comment #23

Travis Crabtree says ...

Yeah, I googled Yearning for Zion. The polygamist people. (I missed that "Oprah") Wow, it looks like it's literally sweeping the nation! Jeez, what cave have I been in? I take back everything.

You go, Islamists!

comment #24

fredderf says ...

You'd think that we could all agree on such a simple reaction. It really couldn't get any easier in commenting in unison on this one. Obviously both Travis and SpinDozer have made good points.

SpinDozer:
"Tell us that the US overthrow of Iran's democratically elected leader in 1953 had absolutely nothing to do with the Iranian Revolution of 79 or that establishing an Islamic based resistance to the Soviets had nothing to do with 9/11. Cos that's exactly what you'll need to do in order to bear the white man's burden with the ease you have postured until now."

Travis:
"I'll concede.... since America has done bad things in the past, I therefore withdraw any comment or opinion I have over so-called "honor killings"."

Well, at least those were the parts that stuck out for me. Please consider discontinuing any verbal abuse, if only for clarity's sake.

Earlier today I read about a similar true story, except this victim was only 13 years old. They lied and said her age was 23 years. She wasn't, she was only 13 and a rape victim. She came forward after she was raped by three men, they didn't detain the men, but they did stone her for adultery. This film is reality in Somalia and in a lot of other countries. This didn't happen in the 80's, this was only last year. Here is the link to the story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7708169.stm

comment #25

SpinDozer says ...

fredderf:

What you appear to miss in the exchange is that this is not a zero-sum game. Stoning women, or marrying them to their middle-aged uncles is deplorable. The "conservatives" in America have used isolated incidents of extreme depravity to justify wars in which we napalm innocent men women & children in the name of these extremes.If you want to look further into these kinds of abuses, you can find them in non-islamic cultures, India for example, but since they don't have oil, no irrational hue & cry. The belief that US guilt in the past means that atrocities in the present are acceptible is a right wing strawman.

comment #26

YRG says ...

Re: African stoning story-- typical strong arm tactics to make sure people are too frightened to report crimes. I find it fascinating that they said Allah told them to do it. Also, that the BBC reporter stationed in the area was killed. They really don't want the news to get out. Bad things happen on the Earth, not other planets, whether you believe it or not. I see where the comment is coming from-- how can this happen? But the sad fact is it's human nature. People don't grow up much from being kids fighting on the playground-- the stakes just get higher.

comment #27

Travis Crabtree says ...

fredderf:

You're wasting your breath. There isn't anything that Dozer doesn't see through a political prism.

My initial post was addressing the relief that for once we could look at these issues without adjusting them to fit our own political template. SpinDozer wasted no time doing just that. You don't like the atrocities committed by radical Islam? Then you're a Bush-loving NeoCon.
You'll be labelled soon enough. (I'm guessing you'll be called a Glen Beck Faux Noise follower, or some variation on that.)

We suck!

comment #28

mccool III: 3-D says ...

Jeffrey....pissing down the shafts at Del Monte or turning on in your youth are acts about as rebellious as ordering french fries with gravy at a diner. When has any of your defiance been carried out in the face of death? Your rebellion was of your own invention. No Americans can relate, but even farther removed are people with blue eyes with a name like Wells who have never known a moment of disadvantage, discrimination, or persecution in their lives. We can not possibly understand the choices that must be made in Iran. To suggest so is preposterous.

And sorry, I can't help myself. It's really fun to watch Spindozer. He's unhinged. A few facts to shut him down or demonstration of wit that exceeds his own and dozer's claws come out.

Google. Good suggestion. Maybe this isn't our Spindozer ( http://spindozer.livejournal.com/profile ), but lord, it would explain a lot. If it's not him, then there's another hopeless dork somewhere out there going by the same name...

From his livejournal Interests:

a wrinkle in time, akira kurosawa, alive from off center, autumn, b movies, back massages, baths, beer, bela fleck, biking, brahms, c++, cacao, captian morgans, chinese food, coffee, computers, dancing, dogs, eiffel, espresso, euphemisms, fark, frank zappa, godzilla, haskell, ice cream, indian food, jagermeister, japanese food, java, joni mitchell, juice, jungle jims, kashi, kung-fu movies, mahler, miles davis, mysql, night music, nutella, o'reilly books, ocaml, oingo boingo, peter gabriel, playhouse 90, postgresql, python, ry cooder, samurai flicks, sarcasm, satire, sex, showers, sleep, spring, suzanne vega, talking heads, tea, thai food, the 80s, the onion, tzatziki, vanities, wei chi, wei qi, weiqi, wine, women, xylophones, yarns, zithers, zombie movies, zope

comment #29

DeeZee says ...

Scott: "Come what may, the west (in general) doesn't do stonings and honor killings,"

But if people like that are willing to sell their oil to us or outsource our workers, then we'll gladly do business with them. Oh, and we also find time to prop up thugs to gun down nuns and priests...

Travis: "It's true. We really are no better than they are."

Well, raping POWs, er "combatants", and trying to hide the evidence doesn't exactly give us an edge over them at the moment...

comment #30

berg says ...

this film will make people talk ... one colleague mentioned this film to me and asked "is it right wing or anti-Arab while purporting to
just be pro-woman and anti-Islamofascist" and I said it is all of the above ... the director doesn't know what he's doing and the film is (to paraphrase gene hackman in Night Moves) like watching paint dry" ... funny you mention Hostel 2 because I thought of Roger Bart getting his entire organ removed with a torture instrument last seen in Exorcist 3 during this film .... my actual thought was this is so bad, they director is going to make me watch this woman die in slow motion, and then the film won't be over because we still have to return to the bracketing story of Caveisel (who is actually good in the film) getting his car fixed ... there were laminated flyers for this film a month ago in the theaters stating that the film is available for church groups .... quoting from the flyer "Buy out a screening of the film opening weekend and Jim Caviezel will tape a personalized greeting to you and your congregation to play in your church. Imagine the impact during your Sunday morning service of a warm and heartfelt message directly from Jim Caviezel to you and your congregation." ...

comment #31

Pomerania says ...

Jeff's entitled to say he understands to some extent what's going on over in Tehran right now - we all can, as fellow human beings. Let's not romanticise the protestors, brave and desperate as they are. No one walks out the door in the morning thinking they're going to get killed, and crowds give you the illusion of safety. And Spindozer, please please don't refer to women as Pussy - that's a kind of modern-day post Democratic very watered down version of the same attitude seen in this film. I find it a curious choice of subject matter for an ex-Pat Iranian - of course it feels politically loaded. But basically it sounds like it's not a very good film. Woman-hating is one of the saddest and most difficult-to-understand impulses in our world, and yeah, the Clerical regime enabled underlying prejudices to emerge into the light of day, upheld by hateful laws that have more to do with tribal than Islamic culture. .

comment #32

SpinDozer says ...

'You don't like the atrocities committed by radical Islam? Then you're a Bush-loving NeoCon.'

Get a pacifier dude, I merely observed that the 'men' that do things like stoning women they can't control are conservatives. You're the one that had to whine about it.

comment #33

SpinDozer says ...

"It's really fun to watch Spindozer. He's unhinged. A few facts to shut him down or demonstration of wit that exceeds his own and dozer's claws come out."

Life good on fantasy island, then? You know how much I heart O'Reilly books now, damn. No stopping a smart guy like you or overcoming your facts and wit. Too Beaucoup!

comment #34

JohhnyCanuck21 says ...

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.

* Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

comment #35

bents75 says ...

I don't understand how that livejournal list supposedly makes Spindozer a "hopeless dork", even if it was him.

If you don't like even half of that stuff McCool, then that says a lot more about your unmeasurable Lameness, then it does him.

There are few things better in life than Beer, Chinese food, coffee, dogs, sarcasm, satire, sex, showers, sleep and women. Kung-fu, samurai, and zombie movies are just icing on the cake.

comment #36

mccool III: 3-D says ...

nothing wrong with being a dork....but it would explain perfectly why spindozer is such an insufferable creep. It's your typical alter-ego scenario. Dork in real life + insufferable asshole online suggests a lack of friendship and close relationships in the real world, and the forums become the release, the place where we all get treated to cartoonish bully.

As for me and my immeasurable lameness, well it includes things like women, beer, sex, but I've never actually sat down and charted my interests like some, well, some dork. I like football, and porno, and books about war...

comment #37

free games says ...

It's not a Republican or Democrat thing to be horrified and deeply concerned with the spread of totalitarianism based on a radical, violent interpretation of fundamentalist Islam.

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comment #41

dd says ...

I don't know all that much about your life, but I'm pretty sure you don't understand what is happening in Iran. And no offense, but I don't think commenting on cinema and politics on the internet is even remotely similar to what Mousavi's supporters are doing now.

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