Enemies vs. Burger Crowd

The thrust of this Kim Masters/Daily Beast hit piece (“The Knives Are Out for Michael Mann“) is that if and when Public Enemies tanks with Mr. and Mrs. Joe Schmoe and their kids over the July 4th holiday then it’s curtains for Mann in terms of getting any kind of heavy funding for his next film.

Haven’t I already figured this out? Mr. and Mrs. Joe Schmoe and their kids will not be all that happy with Public Enemies — let’s face it. It’s not a mojo burger, pickles and potato chip type of film and it never will be.

I heard today from an older North Carolina couple. Not very sixpacky in their taste and attitudes (the husand is former Manhattan-based entertainment reporter Lewis Beale), but they went to the film today and here’s what they thought. “The Beales saw it today, and loved it,” Lewis wrote. “We agree that it’s an art film, which is why it’s really problematic at the b.o. But languid, elegaic and beautifully shot. Depp and Cotillard are great. Stirring social-political subtext (lone entrepreneur up against big business and big government). A major work.”

Masters also reports that Johnny Depp decided not to talk to Mann at some time during filming — big deal.

  • Midwest Doug

    Again, why is this coming out July 4 weekend? Because if it tanks, there’s an excuse, but if it tanks in October there’s no excuse?

  • Deathtongue_Groupie

    “Again, why is this coming out July 4 weekend?”

    Mom and dad drop the kids at TRANSFORMERS and wait while watching this (ENEMIES is 9mins shorter, so the timing is almost perfect. Not for this family – the girls aren’t into “big, stupid robot movies”).

    Yet, getting back to the central point of this, if Mann wants to make art films, he better figure out how to do it for a helluva lot less than the $200M that this sucker cost.

  • Myles

    Does anyone listen to “The Business” on KCRW? Could Kim Masters be more of a smug bitch? She revels in talented folks’ failure. It’s disgusting.

    And for the record, I just saw Public Enemies and fucking loved it.

  • Travis Crabtree

    Sorry, but this kind of sounds like another (more literate) example of “I liked it, and if you don’t like it, you’re stupid”.

  • Midwest Doug

    The funny thing is, Masters tries to take down Mann in the article. I respect him all the more — if you want a go-er, he’s a go-er.

  • LexG

    Well, if you wanna know what the dumbest of the dumb thing, head on over to the IMDB boards; The masses have spoken and they’re almost uniformly confused and angry:

    Worst movie ever, boring, sucked, stay away, don’t waste your money, piece of shit, couldn’t understand the dialogue, made me motion sick, looks cheap, French chick sucks, Depp is boring, Bale sucks, no action, too long, I walked out, people were booing, etc etc etc.

    Yikes.

  • Ulysses

    You can get dill pickle potato chips in Canada.

  • Chase Kahn

    It’d almost be a blessing, an affirmation of its status as a legitimate, heady art film (which it is) if it DOES tank at the box office.

    Do we really think the same country that forked over $200 million for “Transformers” will show up in droves for something that actually works?

  • shermy

    Wow, I didn’t realize this was coming out on July 4th weekend. Who thought that would be a good idea? I assumed it would be one of those mid-July films that opens in between tentpole releases.

  • shermy

    Do we really think the same country that forked over $200 million for “Transformers” will show up in droves for something that actually works?

    They showed up for The Dark Knight. Or, are we going to pretend that was a completely different demographic?

    If the studio hypes a film enough, the masses will show up. The problem with Public Enemies is that it doesn’t have much buzz on it- outside of fanboys.

  • Kristopher Tapley

    Masters is so out to get Mann. First the Vice rumor mill, now this.

  • mutinyco

    Lone entrepreneur up against big government? WTF?

    John Dillinger was a sociopath with a chip against society who went on a one year crime spree before being shot dead.

  • Gnome de Guerre

    I’m a big Mann fan. Loved Miami Vice, among others. And while I want to see Public Enemies (because of Mann (and with that cast!), the visual look, and the reviews) I’m not particularly interested in the subject, nor did I find the trailers that enticing beyond the visuals’ giving a “you are there” digital video documentary look to a period piece.

    Maybe the general public just ain’t feelin it either, regardless of the work’s quality? Should people go see it simply because it’s good for them? Well, yes, but any film executive who thinks that shouldn’t be given anything more than an indie budget to greenlight. Don’t blame Mann. Blame the machine.

  • bluetide

    The marketing for this movie sucked. Nothing remotely provocative or exciting. You the stars of the biggest blockbusters in modern Hollywood (yeah, I know Ledger was the driving force behind Knight, but still) with Michael Mann directing. But the previews and the posters for this thing were just bland. One great trailer can take a film from also ran to blockbuster. A trailer as mediocre as the one for Public Enemies can take what ought to have been the film of the summer for adults and turn it into Miami Vice 2.

  • Chicago48

    Gnome makes good points. I saw it at a screening but not sure I would pay for it; because I paid for Miami Vice and didn’t like it. At all. Until the end with the shootout. Very tense, very well directed.

    Anyway, the poster with Johnny standing above the credits is reminescent of the Untouchables, and people have got to realize these type of 1930s type gangster movies take patience to watch. We all know the story of the untouchables, we know how it ends, same with PE. If there were problems with the movies, it’s a) it feels very docudramaish; where was the music score? It needed a music score;
    b) I couldn’t hear a lot of the dialog and don’t know where the sound man was. I could hear the bullets loud and clear but the actors were muttering and I missed a lot. Only Bale could be heard.
    c) The point was?

    Other than that, it’s very Bonnie & Clydish and that movie wouldn’t sell in today’s world.

  • DarthCorleone

    That’s a good point about the advertising campaign. It is extremely lacking. Does the studio think Christian Bale is still in the doghouse with the public because of the Terminator tirade and the movie’s under-performance? He is still Batman, there are still plenty of women who lust after him, and there are still plenty of film junkies who think he’s a great actor and don’t care about his tantrum.

    That’s how they should have sold it, whether it’s an accurate depiction of the movie’s focus or not: Depp vs. Bale. They’re arguably the two most respected (if not popular) leading actors of the last ten years, and – as I said – women want them both.

    Still too early to tell anything, I guess.

  • sumo-pop

    My wife and I just got back from PE and if that isn’t the best movie of the year then it’s going to be one hell of a good year at the theatre.

  • http://somecamerunning.typepad.com Glenn Kenny

    Christ, Jeff, enough with your hatred of “the burger crowd.” You’re becoming a complete parody of the stereotypical liberal…voting for a “progressive” agenda and dripping with contempt for the people it’s meant to benefit.

    That said, I saw “Enemies” today with a “burger crowd”…the multiplex on Brooklyn’s Court Street, 1:15 show, 3/4 full, and the crowd laughed, cheered, hissed, exactly when they were meant to and enjoyed the film immensely. You know what that means, Jeff? THE GORILLAS ARE WITH US!!! Stop worrying!

  • hawthorne

    This movie will be a big hit. Two reasons… Johnny Depp and excellent word of mouth after the first weekend. Come on now you doubters! Johnny freaking Depp! Plus there is nothing really out there now for grownups who want to see a well crafted movie with a story! this will be huge! I can’t believe anyone is doubting this.

  • hawthorne

    ps…there must be some tracking numbers out there by now? or early ticket sales numbers?

  • StoneFan1

    I hate to agree with the mixed reviews of “Public Enemies,” but it has a lot of problems. I mostly blame the script! Cinematography, gun battles, costumes, music, sound, editing, makeup are all outstanding, but it doesn’t connect on an emotional level. I’ll give it a B+, but that could go up or down based on future viewings. Very disappointing! I’d rank it seventh out of Michael Mann’s ten feature films. 1) “The Last of the Mohicans” 2) “The Insider” 3) “Manhunter” 4) “Thief” 5) “Collateral” 6) “Heat” 7) “Public Enemies” 8) “Ali” 9) “Miami Vice” 10) “The Keep”

  • StoneFan1

    Oh, the audience didn’t react to much (half-full afternoon showing) and left without saying a word. I don’t think this will last long.

  • Princess of Peace

    I can’t believe what I am hearing! Art film?! Are you kidding me. I saw Tetro yesterday and really liked it. I saw Public Enemies and didn’t think much of it. I spoke to other woment (who all love foreign films, etc.) and we all agree. This is not sitting well with women of a certain age.

    I am saying this because I am not part of Jeff’s burger crowd (in fact, I am a vegetarian). The film looks good and the aciting is fine (except for Bale with that awful accent). But the film has no depth. It is style over substance. And to think that Dillinger was a crusader against capitalism?! I think that Bonnie and Clyde is a masterpiece. But Public Enemies is not.

  • Alboone

    I can’t wait to see this. The only sore spot for me from the trailers is that HD look. I wish Mann would just abandon the digital cam for awhile. It looks cheap dammit!

    But I do have to agree with the Master’s piece — if this movie bombs…forget it. The adult drama will be on hiatus. Mann will return to television which isn’t a bad thing, but the landscape out there will be littered with robot ball sacks. Just think about that for a moment. No variety of any kind. Just CGI reels strung together. Depressing indeed.

  • BurmaShave

    Just got back. Need time to assemble thoughts, but feels pretty major. I feel like this is Depp’s Oscar film, but he probably won’t be rewarded for what many probably feel is charm and charisma that comes naturally to him.

    Had no choice but to bust out the LAST OF THE MOHICANS now.

  • http://lipranzer.blogspot.com lipranzer

    I have to say, I didn’t have any problems with understanding the dialogue. Maybe the sound mix at the theater I saw it at (the one at 34th & 8th) is especially good?

    And yeah, Masters is just delivering typical Hollywood columnist bullshit – when studio movies suck, it’s not the fault of the hacks, but of those who actually want to take the time and care to make a good film! Unbelievable.

  • DeeZee

    “The thrust of this Kim Masters/Daily Beast hit piece (“The Knives Are Out for Michael Mann”) is that if and when Public Enemies tanks with Mr. and Mrs. Joe Schmoe and their kids over the July 4th holiday then it’s curtains for Mann in terms of getting any kind of heavy funding for his next film.”

    Why should Mann be blamed? If Paramount can make money on Sweeney Todd, Universal should be able to sell Public Enemies.

    Deathtongue: Actually, IMDB has the budget at $80 million, so it should make its money back eventually.

    shermy: Plus, the people who saw TF2 might go for PE, just to regain the IQs which were raped after watching the prior film.

    Anyway, Angelenos should avoid the Staples Center on Tuesday, since MJ’s funeral will be held there, for some stupid reason. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i04af04c7447fd0dcfd7782624b906212
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i04af04c7447fd0dcb9c91e5d1942ea93
    http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118005595.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

  • buster keaton

    A studio executive who requested anonymity told me “Kim Masters! She’s a no-nothing who doesn’t even go to movies!” An observant producer familiar with the reporter declared “Kim is like Nikki and Sharon, but without ownership in any online portfolio. She’s a yenta who talks to Mikey Fuchs, Jim Wiatt and Tom Pollack and endlessly recycles their not-for-attribution quotes.” Still another knowledgeable source who was born without a name said, “Just the facts, ma’am…and there aren’t too many verified facts to be had here.”

    Johnny Depp, Michael Mann, Bryan Burroughs and Ron Meyer declined to comment, so all we’re left with are garbage quotes and some old information about Miami Vice, Heat and Last of the Mohicans.

    But we do find out that Depp didn’t talk to Mann during filming. I for one do not believe that — but if “sources say” it then it must be true, right?

  • Mark

    The only thing I understand as being polarizing is the use of digital . I loved most everything about it except I agree with anyone who considered the digital to be occassionally distracting. in parts, the digital to me = a fat hard-laughing dude two rows ahead to Jeffrey.

    also, my girl loved it, so i’ll stop beating the women hate Mann drum.

  • DeeZee
  • BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey

    Just got back. It was outstanding. Best Mann film since The Insider, no doubt.

    The sound at the theater I was in was absolutely fucked though. I think at least two or three of the surround sound speakers were inoperational. Even the Universal fanfare was a tinny dribble. Plus the projectionist had the picture spilling out from the screen onto the left hand side. And this was at the Regal E-Walk on 42nd St where presentation is usually good.

    As for the picture – I think the HD looked great in slower, more still moments, but there’s still something off when there’s frenetic movement. It does look a bit cheap. But close-up it was great. The final scene looked phenomenal, with Bale fiddling with the matchbox and whatnot. I just wish the action looked as good on the HD. But it wasn’t enough to distract me too much and overall the look of the film was excellent.

    Great, great movie. I think I’ll go again.

    Christ, Jeff, enough with your hatred of “the burger crowd.” You’re becoming a complete parody of the stereotypical liberal…voting for a “progressive” agenda and dripping with contempt for the people it’s meant to benefit.

    Yes. Exactly.

  • EdHavens

    For an R-rated film during a Wednesday matinee, Public Enemies did pretty damn well at my theatre today. Neck and neck with Ice Age 3D in terms of tickets sold.

  • BurmaShave

    Also kind of random, but can we talk about how good Jason Clarke was in this movie? I hope it leads to consistent film work.

  • Terry McCarty

    Interesting imdb board quote:
    Despit a few moments this film really dragged. It was very uninvolving and the performances were just average. Zero energy, I wonder what a better script and scorcesse directing might have led to

  • Deathtongue_Groupie

    I’m sorry, but I can’t be the only person who just wrote off StoneFan1 on the basis of ranking HEAT #6….

  • cameron_murray

    @Deathtongue : you’re not the only one.
    @StoneFan : give me a break. The Mann enthusiasts I know generally consider Heat to be The Masterpiece of Mann’s oeuvre. Of course that’s debatable (Insider, Mohicans are both contenders)…but if not #1, then certainly top 3.

    What I loved most about PE were its thematic parallels with Heat. There were several, but my favorite was Dillinger’s Achilles Heel, his ego. Or as McCauley referred to it, “unfinished business”. It brought about both characters’ demise.

    Regarding the ‘Depp wouldn’t talk to Mann’ rumor:
    A friend of mine worked on the show and told me this story months ago. Apparently Depp, in response to Mann treating the crew like shit, refused to leave his trailer until Mann’s attitude/etiquette improved. The specifics regarding what exactly Depp did could be different — maybe he did leave his trailer, and just refused speak with Mann — but Depp’s motives sound both believable and completely justified. Depp is a man of the people.

    At the same time…I’d work as a PA on a Mann picture (even if I was berated daily) in a heartbeat.

  • dinovelvet

    I assume that if ‘scorcesse’ directed it, it would be the exact same film only with Leonardo DiCaprio as Dillinger, and Gimme Shelter played every five minutes

  • BurmaShave

    Jamie Foxx and Al Pacino are the only leading men to work with Mann more than once. Maybe it just takes an extremely outsized alpha ego, Depp’s tact was probably incorrect, and just led to them not talking. Give that shit right back to him.

  • LexG

    The retards have spoken:

    Per Crazy Nikki, ICE AGE 3, whatever the MOTHERFUCK that is (seriously, did you guys even KNOW there was an Ice Age 2????) made 14 MILLION Wednesday, while PE made 8.

    Which means PE will do 5 or 6 Thursday, and since WOM is overwhelmingly negative, do about 18 mil over the weekend for a five day in the low 30s before dropping 60%.

    Meanwhile, some CARTOON makes bank because America can’t wear a fucking condom.

  • bmcintire

    It has been interesting to watch the publicity train for PUBLIC ENEMIES back away from Bale since TERMINATOR: SALVATION. He (and his cartoony gravel-voice) seem to be whom the knives are out for.
    That said, the average moviegoer (having not a fucking clue nor care who Michael Mann is) is probably not going to turn out for this because Depp is not playing the winking caricature they have grown to know and worship through the PIRATES franchise and Tim Burton’s direction in SLEEPY/WONKA/SWEENY. The dour Depp is much less appealing to the masses.
    And that is a shame.

  • StoneFan1

    So much for “Mr. Details” Michael Mann…
    just heard Imus in the Morning’s spots reporter
    Warner Wolf mention a mistake in “PE.” Near the very end of the film, Depp walks into the FBI
    room at the Chicago Police Station where the search for him as been based. Well, nearly all the
    officers are out because they’ve been told by the “lady in red” that she’ll accompany Dillinger at the
    movie theater that night. So, they’re all out getting into position, etc. Anyway, Depp walks around
    the FBI floor looking at photos of his companion’s (mostly dead by this point) and different crime
    scene’s over the past few months. I guess the scene acts as a wrap-up or remembrance of that
    has happened. ANYWAY, he walks to the back of the main floor and the remaining officers are
    listening to a baseball game. Well, Depp walks over and asks them who’s playing, what inning
    the game is in, and the score. One of the officers says. “the Cubs, the seventh, and they’re up
    3-2.” Then, you hear the radio announcer say “Yanks are up.” Warner Wolf pointed out that the
    Cubs-Yanks only played in the 1932 World Series and this scene takes place on the day
    of Dillinger’s death in July of ’34. It couldn’t have been inter-league play either. It’s sort of odd
    when a detail like that slips by Mr. Detail with over $100 million at his disposal.

    By the way, the entire scene is totally unbelievable and really threw me out of the picture at a key moment.
    _______________
    Now, “Heat” has its great moments, but when a whole third of the picture it totally unwatchable due to the horrible writing and acting of ALL the female characters, I can’t rank it all that highly no matter how good the rest of the film is.

  • StoneFan1

    “Public Enemies” has HUGE problems, but nobody is willing to admit them on this site. We’ve got a bunch of Mann fan boys I see. I mean, he’s my third favorite director, but when something misses, it misses.

  • snoop

    Saw this last night and really enjoyed it. Still ranks behind The Insider and probably Heat, but good stuff. Most likely the best “big film” of the summer.

    I think this should have a decent opening–it’s got Depp, a bunch of gun fights, and a solid love story. Actually, speaking of the marketing, why haven’t they done a trailer or commercial that plays up the love story more. It would probably put more butts in the seats, while still conveying a large part of the film.

  • Chicago48

    Burmashave: Whoa! maybe that’s what happened in my theatre. I could only hear Marion, Christian and the Hoover guy….Depp came off practically mumbling….must have been the sound equipment.

    As for the boxo: Mom & dad went to see PE, and dropped the kids off at Ice Age. Yeh, Ice Age 3? I thought it was straight to vid by now.

    The PE poster needs to be revised to show Marion in it with Depp, so it gets more women….there is a little love story there.

    Does anyone know the actor in the last scene with Billie? the agent? He looked familiar.

    Half those PE actors I couldn’t recognize to save my life.

  • Chicago48

    Last ?: How much does it cost to advertise movies on the internet (as opposed to TV & newspaper?)

  • Howlingman

    The Burger Crowd can check out TF2 all they want — just stay clear of the theater when I go see Public Enemies and Hurt Locker in a week or 2.

  • Guillaume

    Even in the case of PUBLIC ENEMIES sinking at the US box office,it will do well in the Europa markets,believe me!…and also on dvd,blu ray,tv sales,etc.
    MIAMI VICE bombed in the States but did well in France,Germany,UK…also the reviews were better in Europa than in the States!

  • twicks

    A friend who goes to plenty of free screenings said PE was the first movie that got absolutely no applause at the end.

    Not even “thanks for the free movie” applause.

  • Guillaume
  • mizerock

    > Yet, getting back to the central point of this, if Mann wants to make art films, he better figure out how to do it for a helluva lot less than the $200M that this sucker cost.

    Wait, are you talking about Transformers, or Public Enemies? There’s no way this cost $200M. It’s shot on digital, that’s much cheaper, right?

    IMDB says the budget was $80M.

  • Ghost072

    “At the same time…I’d work as a PA on a Mann picture (even if I was berated daily) in a heartbeat.”

    Well…exactly.

    “Meanwhile, some CARTOON makes bank because America can’t wear a fucking condom.”

    Awesome.

    I wrote this Masters person off when she quoted a “former studio chairman” that says “Michael Mann, in the past 15 years, has not made one movie I’ve liked.” Seriously, what “former studio chairman” wouldn’t like Heat or The Insider? Heat did great on DVD and The Insider was a prestige film of the highest caliber. I call bullshit on Ms. Masters.

  • Deathtongue_Groupie

    mizerock – some reports put the budget at $150M. Add in at least $50M for advertising and marketing….

    LexG – you do understand that ICE AGE 3 is intended for CHILDREN, right? That UP was released a month ago, so it’s time for the kiddies out for the summer to have a new distraction?

    Otherwise, what kind of retard expected 8 year olds to see a R-rated gangster flick? Perhaps it’s not America that needed a condom…

  • Deathtongue_Groupie

    I know box office number circle jerks are an anathema to this site, but no one has commented on the fact that TRANSFORMERS was the ONLY film in the top 20 or so that had a drop from Monday to Tuesday (and Tues to Wed. if those Finke numbers hold true).

    That $200M doesn’t mean dick. When your competition clears out and you are the only summer popcorn action around, of course you are going to rake it in. But watch this weekend when it takes a huge fall (around 60%) in defiance of the holiday weekend.

    And after that, BRUNO is going to drive a stake thru it’s heart July 10th.

    In the end, it will probably barely limp over the $400M mark (if it even gets past $375). For a film that cost $300M plus all in and has Bay taking a big chunk of profits, that means no one is dancing on their desks at Dreamworks and Par.

  • ElstonGunnAICN

    To be fair, I believe the veggie burger crowd will like it more than the classic burger ‘folk.’ The turkey burger demographic could take it or leave it, but will probably lean toward favorable.

  • Myles

    The first day numbers are much better than Universal expected. At the end of the day, the movie will do okay — especially overseas.

    Not that Kim Masters will admit this. No matter the opening number, she’ll be calling the movie a colossal failure.

  • Chicago48

    I was at a free screening too and it didn’t get applause but plenty of people stayed around for the credits. None of the movies I’ve seen have gotten applause, Not even Proposal or Whatever works, but people laughed a lot at those movies.

  • JapAdapters

    Man, I love the pack mentality of the internet. Stonefan1 is wrong because he doesn’t agree with everyone else? Yeah, okay then.

    I’ve never understood the unadulterated HEAT love either. It’s certainly a movie I want(ed) to love but it’s got some serious problems to the point that I’ve always found it infuriating to watch, including when I saw it the day it opened.

    I love, love, love Michael Mann. I’m seeing PE first thing tomorrow, but he’s far from imperfect. In fact, seeing his ten movies listed is rather startling as I count only two classics (Insider and Thief) and a lot of misses (Ali and Collateral) . Plus, we’ll always have Crime Story.

    The thing about Mann is that even when he misses, the movie usually has merit. Personally, I count Heat, Collateral, and Miami Vice as movies that could have been great with minor changes/cuts. Sounds like PE might be in that group as well.

  • EdHavens

    “Near the very end of the film, Depp walks into the FBI room at the Chicago Police Station where the search for him as been based. Well, nearly all the officers are out because they’ve been told by the “lady in red” that she’ll accompany Dillinger at the movie theater that night. So, they’re all out getting into position, etc. Anyway, Depp walks around the FBI floor looking at photos of his companion’s (mostly dead by this point) and different crime scene’s over the past few months. I guess the scene acts as a wrap-up or remembrance of that has happened. ANYWAY, he walks to the back of the main floor and the remaining officers are listening to a baseball game. Well, Depp walks over and asks them who’s playing, what inning the game is in, and the score. One of the officers says. “the Cubs, the seventh, and they’re up 3-2.” Then, you hear the radio announcer say “Yanks are up.” Warner Wolf pointed out that the Cubs-Yanks only played in the 1932 World Series and this scene takes place on the day of Dillinger’s death in July of ’34. It couldn’t have been inter-league play either. It’s sort of odd when a detail like that slips by Mr. Detail with over $100 million at his disposal.”

    Well, Jesus fucking Christ… that really does ruin the ENTIRE GODDAMN MOVIE now, doesn’t it?

  • JapAdapters

    I have to say that after reading the book I’m very concerned with the liberties Mann is taking with history in this movie. Melvin Purvis as Super Agent is boring, while Melvin Purvis as incompetent fop is much more interesting.

    Dillinger walking into FBI HQ? You’re joking, right? Please?

  • Breedlove

    The movie is a masterpiece. Incredible. Mann = God.

    Glenn: I’m rooting for the movie harder than anyone, but I don’t think Brooklyn is the Burger Crowd. I go to movies in Brooklyn all the time and the theater is usually full of film nerds and hipster intellectual types.

    dinovelvet: You do realize Dicaprio was attached to star as Dillinger for a long time, right?

    BoshBarnett: The presentation at the Regal E-Walk is usually good?! On what planet? Place is a dump. Every other time I see a film there it’s out of focus or being projected incorrectly. You must be joking.

    Burma: Jason Clarke is brilliant. A real standout. His last scene is one of the best I’ve ever seen of it’s kind.

  • Steven Kar

    Jan (comment 57),

    Since you have issues with HEAT, as do I, maybe you share some of my nuisances with that movie. For example:

    I never bought the love affair between Neil and Edie. She knows he’s a wanted, murdering, fugitive criminal who spent time in jail, just killed dozens of cops and innocent people, and stole millions, yet, in what seemed like minutes, she decides to ignore it all and go on the lam with him. I mean I know she mentioned in the beginning that she was lonely, but come on! She can’t be that lonely.

    Or how about all the conveniences in the script, like just when Trejo calls Neil moments before the heist and tells him that he’s being tailed and therefore can’t be the wheelman, Neil finds Dennis Haysbert at the very same diner they’re at and asks him to be his getaway driver for the day.

    Or how about the melodrama between Vincent and his wife, which culminates with her daughter’s suicide? (And who uses the word “detritus” when arguing with a spouse?)

    Or the most idiotic thing in the movie: Neil and his gang are supposedly famous for having the reputation of being extra careful, detail-oriented master criminals/tacticians, so what do they do when they want to kill Waingro? They take him to a busy diner, beat him up right there to draw all the attention to themselves, take him out to the busy parking lot where anyone can see them, pull out their guns and shoot him. But guess what? The cops show up, so they stop. But wait, Waingro is a ninja and is able to slip by everyone even though there were 2 people holding him down and 2 on the lookout.

    Or how about when the cops ask to see Val Kilmer’s ID, and they just let him go? Don’t any of them know what this dangerous criminal who was just involved in an epic bank heist/shooting spree looks like? Haven’t they heard of fake IDs?

    And finally, the parallel narrative that Mann uses to show us that Neil and Vincent are really actually the same, just travelling on parallel paths, but have so much on common, they might as well be the same person. You know, the irony. I’m sorry, but a cold-blooded sociopathic criminal like Neil is nothing like the detective who is trying to bring him down in order to carry out justice. Sure, they all have families, and both men are driven, but that’s it. Am I supposed to empathise with Neil then?

    Anyway, I didn’t plan to write so much, but there’s even more about this movie that I can quibble about. And it’s not a comic book movie or a movie based on toys, it’s a movie that takes itself very seriously, and a movie that many have called a masterpiece, so I can’t just “check my brain at the counter and have fun with it”. It’s already been judged and placed at a higher standard, and should be judged accordingly.

    My main problem with that movie has always been the script. And I’m amazed how not enough people have stepped forward to critique it publicly.

  • BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey

    JapAdapters: Purvis is not really portrayed as a super-agent at all. He fucks up regularly and doesn’t have the respect of the Dallas lawmen he brings in. He seems obsessed with Dillinger because his team has let him escape so often.

  • Circumvrent

    For a second, I thought EdHavens was complaining about spoilers.

  • Jonah

    “”Public Enemies” has HUGE problems, but nobody is willing to admit them on this site. We’ve got a bunch of Mann fan boys I see. I mean, he’s my third favorite director, but when something misses, it misses.”

    Ah, the fanboy comment. Simply the laziest form of arguing known to man.

  • Terry McCarty

    And here’s a comment from a poster on Twitter:
    public enemies was the worst movie i have seen in 5 years, michael mann should be shot..just terrible

  • StoneFan1

    It isn’t lazy. Fan boys refuse to admit the other side’s arguments are valid and stick their collective head in the sand after any honest complaint is issued. There’s no use going over this any more, “Public Enemies” is already some sort of masterpiece according to all you fan boys out there regardless of the facts.
    ________________________________________
    Yes, a mistake like that is big. Michael Mann has allowed himself to come off as Mr. Details and yet a mistake of that nature is just silly. It points to major problems in his film universe at this time.

  • Jonah

    It is lazy. Because you’re just assuming everybody that loves the film, and didn’t have a problem with it, is a fanboy. Rather than accepting that somebody loved a film that you did not.

    It’s lazy and arrogant.

    I’m sure there are films that you love, that others do not. Does that make you a fanboy?

  • corey3rd

    noticed over the last week that all the TV trailers appear to be completely focused on Johnny Depp. it’s no longer Depp vs. Christian Bale.

  • JapAdapters

    That’s great news BoshBarnet. Really the interesting part of the book was how in that time period the FBI went from complete stumble bums to mildly competent stumble bums, which shrunk the robbers worlds considerably.

    In the trailers I’ve seen Purvis and Dillinger meet face-to-face, which never happened, and Dillinger call Purvis ‘the man who shot Pretty Boy Floyd’, which came after Dillinger’s death. Really, the main character (if you could call him that) of the book was Alvin Karpis, who was the smartest of the yegs and the last to get caught, though it’s easy to see why they didn’t make a movie about him.

    Also, Dillinger wasn’t really a sociopath. He shot one person in retaliation and showed at least some regret about it. People seem to throw that term around awfully loosely.

  • JapAdapters

    Oh yeah, I’m a Mann “fan boy” and think he hasn’t hit a homerun in ten years. I also love burgers.

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  • DeeZee

    Guill: I knew Ice Age 3 would kick TF 2’s ass. Most of the people seeing the latter movie only caught it out of obligation. [I.E. They hope it didn't suck as badly as the first one.] But they’ve really been warming up to the Ice Age 3 teasers, and so there was no way it was going to disappoint. I’m wondering if Shrek will do well with the fourquel, though. Meyers might’ve killed his good will with that swami movie…

    Deathtongue: Bruno’s gonna bomb, too. Harry Potter’s gonna be the winner that weekend.

  • StoneFan1

    No, I’m not a fanboy!

    I liked “Alexander” when others HATED it, NOT because my favorite director made it and my favorite actor starred in it, but due to my love of the film.

    A fanboy won’t admit when something one of his favorites has made SUCKS. I think Stone has missed the boat any number of times. Therefore, I’m not a fanboy. “U-Turn” was awful, “NBK” is unwatchable these days, & “The Doors” was a disaster from start to finish.

    I think certain Michael Mann fans visiting this site are going overboard in praising “PE” simply due to the fact Mann directed it and the film isn’t “Transformers.” Both of which should have NOTHING to do with whether you like it or not.
    You can’t overpraise one film because it’s being released around a lot of junk. That isn’t fair and extremely shallow. Each film should stand on its own.

  • Jonah

    Stonefan

    The key word in your post is “think”.

    You have no idea for certain what others are thinking.

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