Faltering Mr. Ed
To begin his New Yorker review of Leaves of Grass, David Denby has written a diagnosis of what he believes has been wrong with the choices made star-producer Edward Norton. Not a question of talent but judgment, he’s saying. And yet he’s basically saying “move it or lose it.”
“Edward Norton is a good actor and a busy man — a citizen who concerns himself with solar energy, affordable housing, the Maasai wilderness, peace in the Middle East, the High Line, the fate of the Mets’ outfield, and heaven knows what else,” he writes. “But he’s not quite a movie star, or the actor he could be.
“Early on, after a fast, Oscar-nominated start as an altar boy accused of murdering a priest in Primal Fear (1996), Norton played cunning lowlifes in tough little pictures. He was brilliant as Lester (Worm) Murphy, a reckless gambler and nihilist, in Rounders (1998), and then, muscling up, he turned Derek Vinyard, the swastikaed skinhead in American History X (also 1998), into a horrifyingly intelligent native fascist.
“Norton has blue eyes, a long, narrow chin, and an ironic smile that can suddenly turn intimate. He can be retiring and nearly bodiless, falling back from confrontation like a ghost; he can also be menacing and cold, hardening his baritone into a snarl. Like James Woods in films thirty years ago, he appears to think that he’s the smartest person in the room, and, like Woods, he uses that arrogance as a way of exposing the madness of egotistical characters.
“At the moment, movies could use more men like Norton — actors who can spread a little acid or a little light. If such high-domed performers develop an ingratiating way with women, they become stars, like George Clooney; if not, they usually subside into character roles, like Woods or Alec Baldwin. It’s not easy to be the smartest guy in the room.
“Norton, I think, has the charm, the courage, and the dimensions to take on great parts, but his career has wandered around in roles that have been off center without being good. He stood up to Brad Pitt‘s bullying in the nutty cult classic Fight Club (1999). He was the scientist with anger-management issues in The Incredible Hulk (2008), the kind of popping-veins extravaganza every actor should gratefully leave to Jim Carrey.
“Norton was then swanky in cravats, high collars, and an Anglo-Austrian accent in that thick wedge of Hapsburg cheesecake The Illusionist (2006). The accent got even more pinched and refined when he played a British doctor suppressing his personal sorrows and martyring himself to Chinese epidemics in The Painted Veil (2006), a frightfully noble picture that could have been made by MGM in 1940.
“These are not the best choices for an actor with an instinct for contemporary life. Action is apparently not to Norton’s taste, but he’s a natural for calculating power types and intellectuals — gangsters, lawyers, politicians, journalists, corporate and financial operators. He needs to find writers who will create roles for him as intelligent, troubled men, as Clooney has.”
If he’s concerned with any baseball team it’s the Orioles. I know they’re not very good (been a fan since I was born) but let’s not act like every actor loves NY baseball teams.
Weird Denby wouldn’t mention 25th HOUR, since I don’t think it’s that controversial to consider it Norton’s finest starring role.
I submit that Norton’s career has never recovered from ‘Keeping the Faith’. The fact that he is still allowed to appear in movies at all is a testament to how good everything else he was involved in before that was.
I think Norton should play a part where he acts like a complete lunatic again. Bring back the “Fight Club” magic.
I don’t think Norton was ever as good as his reputation suggests. Whenever I see him in a dramatic part, I see a whole lot of early De Niro moves. But I agree with Denby that overall his choices are not the best.
Can we have a “Call to Arms” for Natalie Portman as well. This woman had her pick of scripts for nearly a decade and has what to show for it. She and Norton were the ultimate underachievers of the last 10 years, both seem poised to superstardom, then blah…
Ed Norton’s performance in American History X was one of the most riveting things I had ever seen up to that point in my life(college freshman.) Hell lets put him on Broadway as Hamlet with Nat as Ophelia and Kevin Spacey as Claudius. We can revive the careers of three of the most promising actors of the 90s.
Here Denby exhibits the most annoying trait of all film critics. He simply assumes — without any personal knowledge — that Norton wants to be “a movie star” or that his acting choices are not what “[they] could be.” As if he understands, by some great divination, Norton’s desires and ambitions. And worse, he operates from such a dated paradigm of an actor’s career. Perhaps Norton is happy with things just as they are.
Denby’s piece here is much like those of critics who imbue their reviews with the expectations of the movie they believe should have been made, instead of reviewing the one that they saw. And then discussing the directors’ flawed vision. All without having a scintilla of personal knowledge of where the director, in fact, wanted to go.
Denby’s problem is that he is not the film critic that he could be. He has talent – but his choice of the New Yorker as a writing venue limits his accessibility and the range of his writing. Instead of writing for the New Yorker, he should be doing more family-friendly reviews, in Entertainment Weekly and US Weekly.
Cmed: Actually, it’s Fight Club which probably killed his career. He was supposed to be the memorable lead, but Pitt stole the show. Plus, it doesn’t help that his on-screen persona’s been co-opted by the emo contingent.
Yes, Gordn! Someone who hates Keeping the Faith as much as I do. That was the blandest, most lifeless movie I’ve ever seen. Just thinking about it makes me feel like I’ve had a massive helping of my mother’s infamous tuna potatochip casserole. With a top-secret cameo by canned peas.
I dunno if it’s the New Yorker’s editor or what, but Denby’s style isn’t quite as lively and loose as it was in his New York Magazine years. Maybe he’s just gettin’ old.
@BurmaShave: I totally agree. He excelled in The 25th Hour, which I doubt that it being Spike Lee’s best film in the past decade is a coincidence.
Also, what about his asleep at the switch performance in The Italian Job? The distaste & disgust is written all over his face in that trash.
Wait…I was under the impression that everyone hated Keeping The Faith?
Not enough people remember how much hatred ‘Keeping the Faith’ deserves.
I give him a semi-pass for ‘Italian Job’, because at least he was forced to do that one by threat of a lawsuit (though, yeah, he could’ve done it better). ‘Keeping the Faith’ was written by his friend (who isn’t a writer) and he spent years trying to get it made and, as soon as he got famous, he directed and produced and starred in it, and I don’t know which of the three he did worse.
“that Norton wants to be “a movie star” or that his acting choices are not what “[they] could be.”"
I don’t entirely disagree with your point about Denby, but which movie are you saying he’s unfair to? Dismiss ‘Red Dragon’ and ‘Italian Job’ completely, since Norton openly didn’t want to do them. But he did want to do ‘Hulk’. Did he do that for the star power? Maybe, but it didn’t work. Did he do that for artistic reasons? Maybe, but it worked even less so.
Going down the list of his recent movies, I can’t see one where you really need to understand why Norton made it to acknowledge that it failed. But especially because denby is a critic, and most of Norton’s movies are attempted critical bait. So, yeah, I think a critic can say if a movie is successful or failing at attracting critical praise.
DZ, you’re right that Pitt upstaged Norton throughout much of the flick, it was probably Fincher’s intention. Once Norton figures out what Durden is, that’s when he kills it in that flick. He’s no longer second fiddle to Pitt and his crazy ramblings and paranoia are golden.
Don’t think that movie killed his career, isn’t him supposedly being difficult which caused that.
“Keeping the faith” a bad film? Bullcrap! Refreshing like a glass of champagne.
If so that’s comforting. I got into it at a party recently, came away with the impression that this movie was fairly well-liked. I’d rather believe that my friends are clueless than that there is no such thing as an absolute, objective truth, that truth being: Keeping the Faith sucks.
CMed – you have to realize that DZ is a total idiot and makes up stupid theories and then tries to argue them. This is probably the fourth or fifth actor he’s said ruined their career because they were supposed to be the lead in a movie and wound up getting overshadowed, and every one of them (without fail) the person he’s talking about was listed in the opening credits of the movie before the person he’s criticizing. There’s no point in even responding to points as stupid as those.
Doesn’t Norton have something of a reputation for being difficult to work with? That could be a central reason why he hasn’t quite had the career it seemed he was going to have.
Mean Freaks – I have trouble with that; I saw it in a theater, and the only scene that played at all was the crazy Asian karaoke guy. (It’s awful and stupid, but it plays)
squealy – his reputation is all over; studios don’t like him because he openly talks about not wanting to be in big movies that they force on him; other actors find him egotistical… but directors are split right down the middle, with your Brett Ratners saying he’s difficult, but then people like Spike Lee or the guy who made ‘Down in the Valley’ saying that he is not only great to work with, but personally put up a large part of the money to protect the directors and their work.
Also, I will always give him credit; I saw them shooting a scene from ‘Keeping the Faith’, and he was shooting the shit with the grips. Now, granted, he probably should’ve been doing something more productive, but here’s a bunch of guys working on his movie and he, the director, takes time to hang out with them and be cool. Most directors don’t do that.
From interviews and such, he comes off as a straight-up dork. In a good way.
@Gordon
You could immediately discount that rumor after reading, “Brett Ratner said…”.
ah, I had another point there I forgot — I was going to say that, with all the shit from the set of ‘The Score’ about Frank Oz and Marlon Brando being unable to work together, my understanding is that Oz has all good things to say about Norton. So it suggests to me that, like you say, the Ratner thing has more to do with Ratner than Norton. But you also know who the industry is going to side with.
Gordon, the idea that director’s don’t normally fraternize with grips is absolutely ludicrous.
I’m sorry Gordo, but you are dead wrong about that. Have you actually ever worked on a film set?
I know you and DeeZee have quite a history here on HE (and frankly, you two should just have sex and get it over with), and you quite rightfully call him out for his inane (and sometimes completely idiotic) postings, but you are far from being any sort of expert yourself. In fact, you’ve made quite a few statements that make you come off sounding pretty damn naive and ignorant as to the innerworkings of the film industry.
There was a time when Edward Norton and Philip Seymour Hoffman seemed neck-and-neck for being the best actor of their generation. It’s no contest now. Like Hoffman, though, he’s fundamentally a character actor and needs to get back to those off-kilter, showy roles that he did so well early on. Crazy for Denby to mention him and George Clooney in the same breath; though I buy the James Woods comparison.
Gordon: Yes, because most people totally watched FC for Norton, and he was the selling point behind the pic.
DZ – you’re the one who said he was supposed to be the star, not me. My point is that Pitt was top-billed and was the main draw.
Vinessa – sorry I wasn’t clear — he was hanging out with them while they were unloading trucks, helping carry lights, etc. I don’t know what sets you’ve been on, but in eight or nine years of professional experience [I should note, 'Keeping the Faith' wasn't, it was just shooting down the street from where I worked so I snuck over to celeb-spot], I’ve never seen any other director carrying lights into a location.
(well, I mean, obviously that’s discounting uber-low-budget stuff and student work)
Gordon: Well, he was given the lead part, so Fincher obviously thought he was going to be someone big. But FC didn’t work out that way for him, because he wasn’t able to “kill” on-screen as well as the guy playing his imaginary friend. And I imagine people who did watch FC, because they liked Norton in American History X, were disappointed that he didn’t exude that same presence in his later work. So any strong WOM Norton might have had was damaged as a result. So maybe Norton and Matthew Vaughn should team up, since they seem to be equally averse to high-profile projects.
Coming up, Norton would always reference Dustin Hoffmann as his idol; a character actor cast as a leading man. Truth is that he’s not his generation’s Hoffman. He’s not a strong character actor. He’s a straight man. He’s his generation’s John Cusack. Not a bad person to be whatsoever, but i suppose we had higher hopes.
“He was supposed to be the memorable lead, but Pitt stole the show.”
Just when you think he can’t top himself, DZ manages to say something even more monumentally stupid.
DZ, this thread contains your least coherent thoughts ever. I don’t understand how anything you’ve said is meant to be related either to anything else you’ve said or to reality.
DTG – see two threads down, when DZ says that Boondock Saints is a movie that non-man-children can enjoy. I honestly believe that’s as stupid as anything anybody’s ever said on this board.
BTW, 31 comments and no reference to the ‘Invention of Lying’ cameo? That was solid comedy character work; I didn’t realize it was him for half the scene! I wish he did more one-scene parts like that.
I love DeeZee’s astounding ability to link anything to present-day box office performance.
“Of course Norton’s role as a Catholic priest in Keeping The Faith will likely hamper Leaves of Grass’s box office take, given the current controversy.”
Dinther: Here Dinther exhibits the most annoying trait of all internet board posters. He simply makes a rather nonsensical point with the confidence of someone who has something illuminating to say. As if Dinther could know how much Denby has researched Norton, or – to be even more controversial – as if he’s right in thinking that Denby needs to justify expressing disappointment in someone’s choices regardless of whether they personally know the actor (or his innermost desires).
Dinther’s problem is that he is clearly not the talkback poster he could be. He has talent – he can string a sentence together in a way that literally coheres, without grammatical errors. But perhaps he should share his opinions elsewhere – like AICN or CHUD?
Because, you know…being disappointed with a move/actor requires a depth understanding of the person’s inner motivations. I for one now profess that all critics must be the wives, husbands, psychiatrists, scientology advisors and childhood friends of the actor and/or director (they must, however, be at least one thing to each person on set). Only then shall we know the official opinion of who has made the right choices in their careers. And we shall revel and revere the one critique that is offered to us each year, with its undoubtedly skillful writing.
Wait, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here. I had no idea people hated Keeping the Faith and apparently a lot of you do. My question is: what is wrong with you?! That movie is lovely, if low-key, with good work from Norton and Stiller — especially Norton, who’s playing a part nothing like his other roles. Given how hard it is to find a mainstream romantic comedy that works even on the level of well-executed formula, I’d think a smart, amusing, well-acted, character-based (if, OK, a touch cornball) little romcom could at least escape such vitriol, and maybe even gather some defenders. I haven’t seen it in a few years, but I totally own the DVD and adore that movie. Nice little tribute to NYC, too, so in a weird way it’s a good double-feature with 25th Hour.
It’s weird, I don’t usually cotton to Denby’s point of view, but apart from a sideways dismissal of Norton’s excellent work in Fight Club, he has a pretty astute diagnosis of the disappointment of Norton’s last five or six years. With all of this period stuff, I’m afraid of him becoming Jeremy Irons, one of those magnetic performers who inexplicably only take costume-y roles (or occasionally bit parts in crap) as they get older. Norton’s run from ’96 through ’02 is pretty damn amazing: Primal Fear, People vs. Larry Flynt, American History X, Rounders, Fight Club, Keeping the Faith, 25th Hour… The Score isn’t his finest, but you can see why he’d want to work with DeNiro and Brando. And, OK, Red Dragon sucks, but that cast is amazing; again, you can see why he took it.
But since then, his work has felt a bit misguided, maybe owing to him not turning out to be hugely bankable. His movies have played like imitations of the types of movies he should be doing. Why is this guy doing The Illusionist (enjoyable enough, if pointless) and not working with Christopher Nolan? Why is this guy doing a geek franchise if he’s doing the Hulk as directed by the guy who made a couple of Transporter movies? (And I say that as a fan of the Transporter movies.) He’s quite good in Leaves of Grass, but it’s another movie that works as a performance showcase more than as a whole, like Down in the Valley.
So yeah, Norton needs to get with Nolan or David Gordon Green or Noah Baumbach or Alfonso Cuaron or all of the above. No big deal if he doesn’t ever become a huge movie star, but he could at least turn into a Pacino or DeNiro, respect plus an okay mainstream following.
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Six lines of context before moving on to cut and paste? This is shit journalism.
Horse puckey. In Fight Club, Norton was playing one half (the mild one) of a schized out personality. Of course he’s going to be overshadowed by the character’s flamboyant side, as played by Pitt. That’s the whole damn point, not a failure on Norton’s part. When his character realizes what’s been going on, Norton brings it!
Jesse, even though I don’t share your love for KTF, I think you have successfully diagnosed Norton’s problem in the past 7-8 years (as opposed to his first 7-8 years in the industry): he’s not working with enough behind-the-camera talent anymore.
First 7 years: Fincher, Allen, Lee, Forman, Kaye (hadn’t done much at that point, but had a reputation from his commercial work), Dahl (he’s always been underrated), Taymor. Hoblit and DeVito aren’t exactly great filmmakers, but I can at least see what attracted him to those projects (juicy role in the former, uniquely dark sense of humor in the latter).
Other than a cool little character cameo in Ridley Scott’s Kingdom of Heaven, he really hasn’t worked with any directors that are even remotely in the same league as the above list.
And yes, he was just fine in Fight Club. Pitt got the showy role, but Norton was the one that kept that movie (at least moderately) planted in reality. Someone above mentioned his knack for playing “the straight man,” and this part is a perfect example of that.
Stone ready to go on a treasure hunt with Leo?
Greengrass hopes his next gig will be fantastic.
Faris wants to get a feel for Benjamin’s privates.
More Saul Bass love.
I liked it when it was called Star Wars Gangsta Rap.
More shop talk.
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More Titans interviews.
Welcome back, Peter.
Digital Bits suggests Psycho might hit Blu-Ray later this year.
I guess appropriating intellectual property without consent doesn’t apply to Murdoch.
More Square clips, and Back-up Plan clips.
Oh, I know Norton’s supposed to play it straight in the beginning. But the hook is that Pitt is supposed to “awaken” him. And instead, Norton turns into the equivalent of a frat boy who woke up with a coyote ugly chick, which means that Pitt steals his thunder.
I thought “Pride and Glory” was very good. And I *LOVE* “Down in the Valley.” You can surely guess what element of that one appeals to me, but Norton’s performance in it is absolutely one of his best.
Really, Norton rules. I can’t believe anyone’s splitting hairs about this or comparing Milos Forman to whoever the hell directed “The Illusionist” on the scale of directorial worthiness. The short of it: He’s awesome, he’s been in multiple masterpieces, everyone in the biz is both in awe of his genius AND scared shitless of him, he bangs AWESOME chicks and he’s super smart, rich and cool. He could spend the next two decades playing Cuba Gooding’s role in a DTV “Radio” spinoff franchise, you you’ll still have to BOW to him for Fight Club (best movie ever), 25th Hour (best movie of the 00s), and American History X (best male performance imaginable, the scene with Elliot Gould in particular.)
NORTON POWER.
Oh, and Seyfried gives love advice.
It was said earlier but the real problem is that he’s got a difficult rep. Like Jesse I really liked Keeping the Faith, a formulaic but fun little movie. But his pre-release pouting prior to the Hulk release probably took him down several notches in everyone’s eyes. His sleepwalking through the Italian Job was disgraceful, especially since I thought it was a fun movie and competently directed. He’s immensely talented but honestly he needs to work with talent, get good material and give in to the process. For some reason this whole thing made me think of Eddie Murphy, who just needs to focus on good material instead of $20 million paydays or he won’t have any more $20 million paydays.
jesse – obviously not agreeing with you on ‘Keeping the Faith’ at all, but the Jeremy Irons comparison is out-of-nowhere brilliant.
and, to Kaned – I have a soft spot for ‘Death to Smoochy’, as flawed as it is, but I have heard fairly universally that the original script is much more interesting, which may be why he signed on. His performance in that is really strong, anyway.
DeeZee: Thanks for the Seyfried link! She is SO DREAMY and it’s cool that she’s going to be answering fan letters… I think I will submit a letter, probably asking if she will a) go out with me; b) make out with me; c) let me give her a foot massage.
I am very certain she will be flattered and say yes to all three.
Norton’s current situation seems to be a probable combination of two issues: his rep for taking over productions and him knowing that he’s gonna have to follow any A list helmer’s direction without serious backtalk.
Since 25TH HOUR, he has not headlined any film by any. His role for Scott in KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is a cameo. I do think he got a raw deal with PRIMAL FEAR and the state should have stepped in to nullify any contract that is basically offered to someone with a gun to their head.
DTG – a thought occurred to me off of that; if you’d told me, in 1998, that Scorsese was going to spend the next decade DeNiroing an under-30 actor who had just broken through in the last few years, my first thought would’ve been Norton and I don’t know how it would’ve taken me to land on Dicaprio.
I have to second (or third) the notion that Norton is considered a huge pain in the ass by most filmmakers and ends up in the “life is too short category.” His rep for undermining the director, especially in post is weighing his career down like an anchor – and most filmmakers don’t want to “collaborate” with someone who sabotages them in post and then threatens not to market the film unless he gets his way. Aside from American History X and 25th Hour, I’ve never found him that great of an actor. He has a whiny, unappealing screen persona and it’s usually a turn off to me. But he can be capable of greatness as seen in those two films. Norton needs to get his head out of his ass before he turns into Val Kilmer – who never recovered from the ugliness of rep, despite being even more talented than Norton. If anyone saw FELON from a couple of years back, you’d know that Kilmer still has the magic, but filmmakers are afraid to tap into it. His name is now also synonymous with B movie – and Norton is heading for that dreaded scarlett letter himself, unless he pulls his career and working reputation out of the nose dive it is in.
“Aside from American History X and 25th Hour, I’ve never found him that great of an actor. ”
But that’s kind of the problem with the “Norton undermines his movies” argument; his two best performances, one of them he by most accounts saved in the edit room, and the other he absolutely abided the director and even paid for a big chunk of the movie himself with ‘Red Dragon’ money.
I mean, I grant you he has that rep, but it seems like Tony Kaye fucking his own movie initially forced that rep on him. I think he really fucked himself by fighting on ‘Hulk’ so hard, because it just reinforced that belief (and over a movie that, how different was he really going to make it?).
Norton is 40. When Brando was 40, it was 1964. When Hoffman was 40, it was 1977. Pacino, 1980. Duvall, 1971. Check their IMDbs for what came after those dates. Just some perspective.
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I’m not sure Duvall in 1971 is comprable to Norton in 2010 in any way beyond age, but it’s a fair point.
I think most of the criticism lobbed Norton’s way seems fairly good-natured, though; it seems like everybody is genuinely hoping the next Norton performance is a home run.
[PS, just to play devil's advocate, Nick Cage turned 40 in 2004, and Kevin Spacey turned 40 in 2000.]
Made in China
Not so sure what those “Hoffman/De Niro/Pacino was Norton’s age in the year…” comparisons are meant to prove. But even though I’m TOTALLY pro-Norton and think the dude’s a god, if you gotta put it in those terms, not sure any of those comparisons flatter Norton; I think the argument is “Dustin Hoffman’s had 33 years of great movies after the age that Norton is now!”
But, er, when you look at those dates, by this age:
Pacino had two Godfathers, Serpico, Scarecrow, Dog Day, …And Justice For All (and I’d argue for Cruising, though the movie is more brilliant than Pacino’s performance.)
Hoffman had (whoa): The Graduate, Little Big Man, Midnight Cowboy, Lenny, Papillon, Marathon Man.
NICHOLSON had: Little Shop, Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces, Carnal Knowledge, Last Detail, Chinatown, Tommy, The Passenger, Cuckoo’s Nest…
Obviously they made different types of auteurist movies back then, but I guess you could handily say Cruise, Pitt, Cage… hell, MODINE had all worked with so many master filmmakers in immortal, unquestioned CLASSICS by the time they’d been 13-14 years in the biz. Norton is always on point, but, yeah, we’re pretty much talking Fight Club, 25th Hour, and a handful of movies where the performance was better than the movie. Of all the great, messy, awesome genius movies since ’96, it is a little striking that (Fincher and Spike aside) Norton doesn’t have a PTA or a Scorsese or an Eastwood or Mann or Spielberg or Jonze or Aaronofsky masterwork under his belt.
Actually, PEOPLE VS LARRY FLYNT was and should be remembered as one of those movies, but I’d be hard-pressed to think of an immediately hailed movie that sunk into obscurity faster than Forman’s ’96 epic. It dropped to unanimous raves and DEFINITELY had that sloppy, sexy, messy, epic, intimate but large-scale GoodFellas, Boogie Nights, Summer of Sam vibe. To the best of my memory, it was the talk of the town for about two weeks in limited before a bunch of feminist op-ed pieces bashing Flynt and his worthiness as a bio subject made it a political hot potato; Woody, Courtney and Norton’s excellent performances were still widely hailed, but the movie became something of an un-PC leper and never recovered. To this day, you rarely see it on cable, and even its SE DVD seemed to come and go with NO fanfare. Shame, because it deserved a better fate and was a powerful piece of storytelling… certainly better than Forman’s immediate and similar followup, Man on the Moon (which, in fairness, is pretty much swept under the rug these days too…)
I feel like ‘Man on the Moon’ was when everybody stopped caring about ‘Larry Flynt’, but I agree with you, its unfair. That may have been me; ‘Man on the Moon’ was one of my biggest disappointments ever (that’s not to say I think it’s entirely terrible, I was just really looking forward to it). But Forman seems to have taken a big step back after that.
Also, you’re selling Hoffman short; you gotta add All The President’s Men… Straw Dogs, well, actual mileage may vary, I’m not a huge fan but I get why he did it. (there’s a lot of Peckinpah I like more, that’s all.) Somehow, I would’ve figured you for a ‘Marvin Gardens’ fan on the Nicholson side, but it may just suffer because he has so many other less disputable great ones.
Regarding Pacino — man, I’m not sure Cruising would even be watchable without him. I know it’s out of bounds, but if you’re going to bring up Cruising, I’m going to bring up Author, Author, which is carried purely on him just having a good time. (“I figured that out when he scratched his leg, and I didn’t feel nothing!”) Every line in that movie seems to have been thought up purely to be delivered by a Pacino imitation. I really liked it.
Holy shit, can’t believe I forgot President’s Men and Straw Dogs (two of my favorite movies ever and sitting four feet away on my DVD shelves), but I did that off the top of my head sans IMDB or Wiki, and somehow they didn’t spring to mind as readily…. Indeed love Marvin Gardens (though haven’t seen it in twenty years, as it occupies the same TOTALLY DEPRESSING, unrewatchable sphere as Hackman in I Never Sang For My Father as early ’70s existential familial depression goes… but yes, Dern and Nicholson and Burstyn in Gardens = RULE.)
AUTHOR! AUTHOR! fan? HA! Then maybe you’d be the ONE PERSON ON THE PLANET to know what I’m talking about when I say SHIA LABEUOF is in EVERY WAY the neo-version of ERIC GURRY, that early ’80s mainstay who played Pacino’s kid in that and starred opposite Penn as Horowitz in BAD BOYS. The idea that goofy, gawky Shia is some kind of blockbuster leading man has always been somewhat akin to an alternate universe where somehow GURRY was a Cruise-level megastar and had the leads in TOP GUN or DAYS OF THUNDER, or if Patrick Dempsey had been a “cool” action guy in the Loverboy days when he was actually Jewish.
Death to Smoochy is greatness, and I will remove the balls of anyone who claims otherwise.
Balls.
OT:
You know who RULES is this JESSE JAMES dude. BOOYAH! Dude is hypnotic and AWESOME, seems like a COOL GUY and I think he’s getting a raw deal in the press. Man is GOD.
well roquetin, I don’t know how to take that.
it apparently eludes you that the last paragraph was intended to be ironic. either that, or you think yourself clever in making precisely the same point over again.
whatever. I think there is some merit to what you say about personal knowledge. which was beside my point. which was, that Denby proceeds on an assumption that an actor’s career trajectory must proceed on one of limited, fixed paths. that’s not to suggest that he can’t have an opinion, of course. but here he’s projecting his own, dated expectations about what an actor should do without apparent contemplation that Norton may aspire to operate outside the paradigm.
I wouldn’t have known the kid’s name, but absolutely (except minus the [whatever-the-PC-word-for-Jew-nose is])! I knew you’d be a kindred spirit with ‘Author, Author’. That movie has you written all over it (but only in the best things about it).
DOWN IN THE VALLEY: Evan Rachel WOOD in her LITTLE BIKINI TOP being SUNNY and awesome and sensitive and impressionable and young and EARNEST and impassioned and BEAUTIFUL.
You will BOW to it. Such a good movie, she is perfection.
LFF – one of my favorite lines, in any comedy, anywhere, is:
“Sorry I smell like piss… you know how it is.”
Iron Man 2 IMAX trailer.
New trailer for Salt.
New trailer for A-Team.
Dinther…I was being a prick – and was definitely thinking I was being fairly clever. Every once in awhile, I indulge in a little bit of internet bile – even though I usually hate reading it when others do it. Anyway, I think, to be a little more serious, that I was responding to what I believe is a too emphatic reading of Denby’s piece. Is he projecting? I’m not really sure what you mean by that – do you think it’s Denby who wants to be a movie star, or are you just trying to make the more mild claim that he’s assuming? The thing is, I think Denby a) has a right to project, be biased, assume, etc., because that is a fundamental part of criticism. I would wonder how one would want to take that away. What makes criticism so interesting is that such unavoidable biases can capture something of what we see, or something of the essence of a situation, movie, actor’s career. And while we tend to align ourselves with those critics whose point of view seems to most credibly capture what’s going on with the actor, I think every critic has the right to indulge their own biases. How could they not?
Second, I don’t think there is anything overly fixed or rigid about Denby’s point of view. He’s offering one understanding and narrative of Norton’s career. And it’s well-written, and actually has a few illuminating insights. (As is O. Gleiberman in his recent piece on John Cusack, which I imagine you’d loathe much more than this).
Lastly, why dated? Cause he invokes talking about movie stars? Which…still exist and arguably have just as much power today as they always have? Do you the concept of movie star is irrelevant? I’m a bit lost.
And by the by – projection, as a psychological concept, doesn’t carry the moralistic baggage you seem to give it. Everyone projects – it’s how people interact. The question is whether and where our projections align with certain feelings or understandings we have that seem to us true, enlightening, etc. And if you think Denby fails by being completely off the rails – well, I would peruse the talkback here and see that, if anything, Denby seems to be onto something with the majority of readers.
And Norton wanting to “operate outside this paradigm” potentially? Where do you get that? And on what grounds of “personal knowledge” do you claim to know this? Are you, in your own language, projecting your own concept of Norton’s career at the risk of doing exactly what you accuse Denby of doing?
I like Norton. Like Lex, I agree that that American History X, Fight Club and 25th Hour are good enough to secure his legacy forever, even if he does a bunch of shit for the next few decades.
He seems to have a problem picking “prestige pictures”. Wishy-washy stuff like The Painted Veil and The Illusionist.
He really ought to take a leaf out of DiCaprio’s book. Dude has just announced a detective film with Oliver Stone at the helm. Then he’s circling a Hoover biopic from Clint Eastwood, and he has Mel Gibson’s Viking thing on the horizon too. Add that to his partnership with Scorsese and the guy has a good mix of commercially viable stuff with A-grade directors. He’s got the best nose for projects of any leading man out there right now, Clooney and Damon included.
roquentin – these are interesting, serious questions you pose, and i’d like to answer/deal with them – tho right now i am underwater at work. so hopefully by tomorrow i will free up some time and get to them.
huge fan of smoochy — why so many people hate it i’ll never understand
Lex my only point was that these people become stars in their mid to late 20s now and by the time they’re barely 40 we’re talking about them being over. Not just Norton. Jude Law, Ewan McGregor, etc. When they still have a whole generation of work left in them. Which is not to say his best work isn’t behind him, but a Norton renaissance is entirely possible.
“Death to Smoochy” is greatness and Norton’s great in it as a former addict/rage-aholic who has chosen a childlike mantle to hide behind. That said, I think it’s up there with the best performances of Robin Williams’ career (next to “World’s Greatest Dad” and “Fisher King” – hell, he’s great in “Insomnia,” though the rest of the movie doesn’t help).
That said, you want to see Norton kind of loose and fun? Watch his “Just You, Just Me” number from “Everyone Says I Love You.” Manic, silly fun.
Tim Roth is a lot of fun to watch in ESILY.
Don’t really get the Smoochy love. It’s always been one of those movies that felt like it was right up my alley in terms of tone/subject matter, but sitting down and actually watching it was an unbelievable chore. It’s just an empty, lifeless piece of cinema where everyone involved seems to be posing in a vaguely-annoyed, “isn’t being bitter fucking cool?” kind of way. It’s a very subjective judgment call on my part, but it doesn’t really seem like the film’s anger/outrage is coming from a sincere place at all (unlike, say, some of Palahniuk’s better work), which for me is the kiss of death regarding material like this.
I’m willing to believe the original script was better, though. There’s definitely a good movie in — or more specifically out — there somewhere.
Also, I liked the vast majority of your above post, but I gotta call you out on this one, Lex:
“MODINE [has] worked with so many master filmmakers in immortal, unquestioned CLASSICS by the time [he'd] been 13-14 years in the biz.”
Now I know you like your movies — almost as much as you like making exaggerated claims (such as this one) — but can you please alert me to which specific unquestioned CLASSICS directed by master filmmakers Matthew Modine was acting in after 1995? I’m trying to be kind here, and I’m still coming up with a grand total of (drumroll, please!)…ZERO.
To be honest, I’d say he’s only ever been a part of one “unquestioned” masterpiece in his entire career, although one could certainly make a pretty decent case for Short Cuts and Married to the Mob, depending on how easily one is inclined to bestow the almighty “classic” status upon (knowing you, I’m sure you’re very fond of the Pacific Heights/Memphis Belle/Gross Anatomy run he had in the late 80s/early 90s).
Kaned, I said BY THE TIME HE’D BEEN IN THE BUSINESS 15 years, ie between 1983 and 1998. Though I’ll throw Modine one more year so he can squeak in ANY GIVEN SUNDAY (masterpiece) along with:
Streamers, Birdy, Vision Quest, Full Metal Jacket, Short Cuts.
MODINE POWER.
Oh, okay, that makes sense…read that wrong.
Birdy‘s pretty cool. Vision Quest???
We’ve been down this road before, but Any Given Sunday commits the unforgivable crime — at least in my eyes — about knowing less than its target audience about the sport being portrayed.
All the stuff in the locker room and behind-the-scenes, politics-of-the-game stuff (i.e. shooting commercials, dealing with fans, negotiating contracts) is pretty solid, though.
VISION QUEST.
Underrated Harold Becker, great dark mid-’80s dreary cinematography, MADONNA POWER BEST SONG EVER, Tangerine Dream soundtrack, Griff from Al Bundy in the cast, the dude from Sixteen Candles in a Mohawk, and Modine being awesome and 29 years old in high school taking a shine to 53-year-old butch chainsmoker Linda Fiorentino.
What’s not to like?
So if it’s made in the 80s it’s “great dark” cinematography, but if it’s made today it’s a “drab Lionsgate (lack of) sheen?”
I keed.
But you did somehow forget to mention the Dio song — Hungry for Heaven POWER.
Good soundtrack. Still falls well short of the eclectic, yet consistently hard-rockin’ wall of sound that is the music of Heavy Metal.
Fuck, I hope they don’t fuck up the soundtrack to that remake. That could, should, and will be a fucking killer collection of tunes. I command it.
Wow, it’s bizarre how many great directors Modine worked with for awhile there, even on not great movies – Gillian Armstrong (“Mrs. Soffel”), Sir Tony Richardson (“Hotel New Hampshire”), Alan J. Pakula (“Orphans”), Jonathan Demme (“Married to the Mob”), Alan Rudolph (“Equinox”), John Schlesinger (“Pacific Heights”), Mike Figgis (“The Browning Version”), Sir Peter Hall (“Jacob”), Abel Ferrara (“The Blackout”), Tom DiCillo (“The Real Blonde”). He was obviously director-bait, but for what, in a lot of these cases, could be considered low points for otherwise noted directors (aside from “Pacific Heights” – um, BEVERLY D’ANGELO POWER, BOW!).
“He’s got the best nose for projects of any leading man out there right now, Clooney and Damon included.”
Well, to be fair, it probably helps to be the person in Hollywood who gets sent the scripts first and gets to reject them before they get sent on to anybody else.
I’m disappointed in both of you, but especially Lex. You’re going to leave John Sayles off a list like that?!
Also, Modine gets the award for best self-deprecating cameo ever, and he did that for a great deirector too.
“Baby, It’s You” just misses the 1983-1998 cut-off. If it’s open season, I’d throw in James Ivory (“Le Divorce”)
Just happened to catch Primal Fear on cable tonight. Seriously, how many actors have debuted more impressively than that? Almost inevitable that everything that came after that (and American History X) was going to seem like a letdown.
“”Baby, It’s You” just misses the 1983-1998 cut-off.”
True, but I think that must’ve been a typo, since it’s supposed to be the directors he worked with since he started, and ‘Baby It’s You’ is his first credit.
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If so that’s comforting. I got into it at a party recently, came away with the impression that this movie was fairly well-liked. I’d rather believe that my friends are clueless than that there is no such thing as an absolute, objective truth, that truth being: Keeping the Faith sucks.
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Vinessa – sorry I wasn’t clear — he was hanging out with them while they were unloading trucks, helping carry lights, etc. I don’t know what sets you’ve been on, but in eight or nine years of professional experience [I should note, 'Keeping the Faith' wasn't, it was just shooting down the street from where I worked so I snuck over to celeb-spot], I’ve never seen any other director carrying lights into a location.Acesulfame-K Aspartame D-Xylose Dextrose Anhydrous Dextrose Monohydrate Erythritol Isomaltitol Luo Han Guo Extract MaltitolMannitolPolydextrose Sodium Cyclamate Sodium Saccharin Sorbitol SteviaSucralose Xylitol
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