comment #1

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

Maybe you should have followed up by asking the brunette what she thought of Euclid. You never know, everyone has their own interests, man.

Great post, and I agree wholeheartedly with pretty much all of it -- especially the first paragraph. But I think you could substitute "people" for "kids" in the third paragraph and it would ring just as true, and probably even moreso. Kids don't grow up in a vacuum. Yes, they mimic the behavior of their peers by their teenage years, but they need positive parental and/or elder figures to look up to early in life to plant the seeds of intellectual curiosity. You know the old saying, "give me a child for his first seven years...".

If anything, it's now my generation (I'm 30), and those a little bit older who are currently dropping the ball on this stuff.

comment #2

kraigschwartz says ...

the education reformer said "stupider"

comment #3

Noah Cross says ...

"The educators who put me through my pre-pubescent and teenaged math classes were sadists, pure and simple."
I'm sure there students in film classes who feel the same way about teachers that screen Michelangelo Antonioni's "L'avventura".
But believe it or not, there are teachers who love math like many of us love film and want to pass that knowledge on. A good math education is far from useless. Especially if one wants to understand science, statistics, economics, etc.

comment #4

allstar397 says ...

I dont think there's any correlation b/w college towns and copy places. 99.9% of college campuses have all those necessary services on campus now.

You have internet access, couldn't you google kinko's and the zip code you're in? I know I wouldn't rely on most of the people i see working at a bagel shop for much of anything.

Speaking of being stuck in your own sphere, somehow math education is sadism, just b/c you don't use it to write about movies. Nobody else needs it though, right?

comment #5

DukeSavoy says ...

You hear this phrase all the time: "getting a bad education" What does this mean? Bad compared to what? Why is it bad? Because kids can't read, can't spell, can't do math? Were the great mass of kids in 1940 better at these things? Were they better at clearing the benchmarks in 1890? Or did educators then just not expect much from them. Don't know. I'm just leery of this "bad education" mantra. It starts to sound like cant to me after a while. A simple complaint above a massively complex problem,

comment #6

DukeSavoy says ...

Did anybody notice the image of Crowe as Robin Hood in the side panels has been changed? In previous versions of this image he had a wide swath of blood on his left forehead running down his temple.

Now, largely gone. Why the change?

comment #7

Bob Violence says ...

That said, I sympathize with anyone who isn't the least bit curious about higher math.

gosh what a surprise

comment #8

Pjm says ...

Now you've crossed a line! Why is it in our culture that's its socially acceptable, even COMMENDABLE, to profess ignorance and distaste for math, but not for any other method of communication? If someone wrote in a science blog that they had no interest in language or words, and was put through hell in high school reading novels and poems and watching movies, you would think such a person a closed-minded ignoramus. So why is okay to say, about math, "I just don't get it" or "I don't have that gene" or "math is boring"? Ignorance is ignorance, and PROUD ignorance is ugly!

comment #9

taikwan says ...

Math involves too much logic. I can't cope with word problems or geometry. Algebra, sure if you can get the right formula. I'm one who believes in the right side-left side differences/preferences and the success that results from these natural talents.

comment #10

Pjm says ...

taikwan: Wrong answer! As someone who studied both math (and science) AND film making, and who has made a living in both fields, I can assure you that there's no difference. Thinking is thinking. Wells is right in saying that all that matters is that you're curious about the world, but he's wrong that there are some things that it's "okay" to not be curious about. You need to be curious both mathematically AND emotionally! I don't trust an artist who ignores the hard sciences any more than I trust a scientist who ignores the movies...

comment #11

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

Good responses, Pjm, but allow me to play devil's advocate for a split second (I'll actually go with 1/4 of a second so as not to leave out the numerically minded). How can one be "mathematically curious," exactly? I mean, what is a good example of this? Would playing Sudoku qualify, perhaps?

comment #12

MickTravisMcGee says ...

Let's skip the math to revisit humanities for a second ...

"Hasty generalization is a logical fallacy that commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population."

Although in this case "small group" = one random chick who was in town to visit her best friend from high school.

comment #13

Kenny says ...

Hi Jeff. It's alright if you hated math and you may not have used it explicitly later in life. But you shouldn't dismiss it --because you have, in fact, used it implicitly.

You were forced by your teachers to follow rigidly structured math problems again and again - at time when your brain was still developing. This created new and more efficient logical pathways of thinking in your brain. The end result being that when your brain encountered a problem - be it math or any other- you solved it more quickly and logically. For instance, it was infinitely more obvious to you that a copy centre would be near by Syracuse U.

So think of all that math of your youth as exercise for your brain. Exercise isn't always fun, but in this case, it left behind some powerful muscle definition that has been maintained all these years--even tho you don't lift those particular weights anymore.

And if thats not enough, wouldn't you agree that the bagel girls of your story almost certainly hated math too? Do you really want to have anything in common with them?

comment #14

Rich S. says ...

Hey, not everyone can grow up to be a poet nomad movie blogger. The world needs engineers, too.

Do me one favor. Please, please, PLEASE keep this blog going until your sons marry. I literally get giddy thinking about it.

comment #15

bondjamesbond says ...

Jeffrey, you still haven't understood the most fundamental character of knowledge itself, which is: The more you know the less you know. In other words, the more you realize the limits of your own cup of knowledge, the smaller is the proportion of that to the potential sum of all knowledge. Therefore, people who brag (like you do here) about how much you know compared to how little someone else knows, fail to understand that the difference between you and the other is infinitesimal compared to the difference between what you know and what you don't and never will.

Besides that, curiosity is basically for idle minds. Wondering where there is a copy place was not, for you, the same as curiosity. It was a matter of need/desire. No doubt, you found such a place. You might have asked the janitor, who may not have known either because he had no need to know. Knowledge arises spontaneously (perhaps with effort) when there is a need for it.

And besides that, sure the fat girl was ignorant, but what about the zaftig blondie?

comment #16

Pjm says ...

Citizen....: Wondering, for example, how your iPhone works, or what a DVD really IS, or how blu-ray differs from standard DVD, or how a camera works, or what Climate Change really is or how it really might work. Those questions are all answered with science and math.

comment #17

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

Hmmm..while I'd certainly agree that wondering how stuff works is definitely a good curiosity to have, isn't it more related to science than math? I mean, I know they work in conjunction -- at least in the sense that it's "applied" -- but I guess I always saw math as more of a means to an end than something to be curious about by itself.

I mean, we pretty much just made up the numeric system as a way of measuring the unmeasurable and explaining the inexplicable, yes?

I guess in that sense it's no different than language, but I'm not particularly interested in language (whether it be English, Arabic, C++, or html) for its own sake, either. Aren't these all essentially tools we use to solve bigger problems and/or communicate with each other more effectively?

comment #18

Holy Spokes says ...

How does not knowing the location of some copy stories indicate her curiosity or lack thereof? Considering you loiter almost exclusively at or near Wi-Fi hotspots use your iPhone or laptop to look it up instead of pestering employees.

comment #19

shanes5 says ...

BJB...curiosity is not only "for idle minds", for idle minds are seldom curious, therefore they remain idle.

There are two types of curiosity--state and trait. Most people have state curiosity, the type where something spurs it momentarily, but then the curiosity passes once the moment or object that spurred it passes. Trait curiosity is something only about 15% of the population has. Once activated, trait curiosity can't let go until it gets an answer. Most great inventors have had trait curiosity.

Being curious is one of the factors in having a balanced ego--humility--by being constantly curious, you understand that you don't know everything yet. It's when people think that their brilliance transfers to every other subject matter that they falter. This is the area that fouls up most fundamentalists (there are a million wrong ways and one right way--mine). People with humility know "I'm brilliant...and I'm not." They understand what they are truly are brilliant about AND they understand that that doesn't mean they are brilliant (right) about every other thing. It trips Jeff up sometimes just like it does me and every other person with a bit of the fundamentalist gene.

But he's spot on about curiosity being one of the most important traits a person can have.

comment #20

The Winchester says ...

"If they're not getting paid for it, and if it doesn't feed into their immediate interest or friend-sphere or family environment or is otherwise right in front of their face, they don't know about it and they don't care to know"

I don't think that's a problem just limited to today's youth. I think that basically sums up at least 90% of the world.

comment #21

bluetide says ...

Based on the folks they interview in this trailer, this doc looks like yet another piece of union-bashing garbage that pins the decline in the education system on teachers and teachers' unions.

It's easy for folks who went to exclusive private schools, like President Obama and George W. Bush, to think that the model they experienced could work for everyone - and there are tons of improvements that can be made to public schools - but a big part of exclusive private school's success is their ability to exclude children with developmental or behavioral problems. Public schools don't have that luxury and there is no place for those kids in a for-profit educational model.

Apart from the increasing federalization of the education system, the unaccounted-for facet to this problem has been the decline of the American family. I'm not talking about that in the Jerry Fallwell "teh gays are destroying marriage" sense; I mean the fact that middle and working class parents (often alone) are working longer hours for less pay and don't have the time or energy to take an interest in their kid's education. More than at any time since the advent of the 40 hour work week , Americans are expected to devote their lives to work and treat their family like a managed distraction. That means some pretty profoundly messed up kids are heading into the education system.

comment #22

COCO says ...

Too true Jeff....most people follow their own world of interests....a smaller bubble for most....just the truth of
it all. My youngest boy is majoring in Math and Computer
Science in college. Where he went there is a guess on
my part, but I always stressed to my sons to ask questions
and seek answers. The oldest is an excellent writer and
loves to draw. Lots of library and bookstore time invested.

comment #23

Bob Violence says ...

yeah I know I'm gonna tell my children to study the location of copy shops for its own sake

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

comment #24

Gordn27 says ...

"How many brain cells does it take to surmise that a college town will definitely have two or three copy places? "

You don't mean "surmise", you mean "assume".

Having been to college a bit more recently than you, I'd be surprised if a college town had a copy shop. Dorms have copy machines and computer rooms where stuff can be printed out, school libraries have copy machines and computer rooms where stuff can be printed out, frats have copy machines and computer rooms where stuff can be printed out, usually dining halls have at least copy machines if not computer rooms where stuff can be printed out (but no food or drink allowed).

Copy shops, on the other hand, jack up their prices significantly (since it's all they do, they need to make a profit off of it) and, in most areas, have been wiped out by Staples and Staples-type stores.

comment #25

barryegan says ...

Fat, blemish-skinned waitresses are never ideal for getting info. You should've found the nearest homie cat and said "Gimme a high-five, soulbrotha... Any local copy joints 'round here?"

comment #26

drbob says ...

So one was zaftig and the other was fat? How do you differentiate the two?

comment #27

Deathtongue_Groupie says ...

There's one kernel of truth surrounded by so much utter crap in this post.

The truth is that a person without a true curiosity about the wider world around them is at best missing out on what life has to offer and at worst easily mislead down some pretty dark paths. I say "wider" because everyone has some curiosity, but it's a curiosity about matters not directly related to one's life that make real discovery possible.

However, this is not an attitude exclusive to the young. In fact, the young and ignorant hold out the possibility of expanding their curiosity. I imagine Jeff has skipped all of his high school reunions, but my 20th was very informative on this point. Several classmates (especially women) who were the equivalent of those bagel shop chicks back in the day were now far more engaged with the wider world than they ever had been back in the day.

Many had married right out of high school with no thought, literally, to further education, but when divorce with children forced them to get an education/training to secure better jobs it pushed them out into a wider world than they had known.

Then there is the supremely self-centered, arrogant and glaringly hypocritical closing thought of Jeff's: "I sympathize with anyone who isn't the least bit curious about higher math." Beyond the fact that this "useless" higher math bunk leads to careers in engineering, science and medicine there's this reverse take on that statement: most people who cheer on such a statement would most likely also agree the same sentiment applies to English.

Just how useful was all that sentence diagramming and iambic pentameter to your life today?

comment #28

Gordn27 says ...

"If I have a math issue, I use my calculator -- end of story."

Next time you need somebody to explain how they count the Oscar votes, use your calculator.

comment #29

John M says ...

What a curious post.

comment #30

George Prager says ...

This is still the best Syracuse-related Wells post:

True Story

Last night my son Jett and two of his roommates were discussing wall-poster decorations in their just-moved-into flophouse -- a seedy second-floor apartment with five bedrooms, a kitchen and a bathroom that's only a couple of blocks from the Syracuse University campus. Jett wanted to put up a poster featuring James Dean and Bob Dylan, and one of the roommates -- a very bright 20 year-old who's (a) gay, (b) African-American and (c) a Republican -- said no way. The point is that the guy had never heard of Dean or Dylan. I'm putting it as plainly as I can. The guy had never heard of either one. That's dedication.

Posted by Jeffrey Wells on January 11, 2009 at 3:36 P

http://hollywood-elsewhere.com/2009/01/true_story.php

comment #31

larry braverman says ...

Surprised about the your math issues, Jeff, especially since you have an interest in photography.

Any serious photographer needs to have some mathematical acumen.

The art of cinematography is absolutely math-based. The mastery and application of exposure, film speed, f-stops, shutter angle, focal length, light density, color temperature, etc, etc is all higher math.

What about directors?

Kubrick's technical knowledge to create his hybrid Zeiss/NASA lenses allowed him to shoot Barry Lyndon. How about Cuaron's use of practical rigs in Children of Men? Nolan with IMAX? Cameron's 3-D?

And I'm pretty sure Walter Murch would disagree with you, too.

comment #32

hunterd says ...

If she doesn't go to college then she might not know what a "reader" is. Before coming to my college I thought you just had, you know, books.

The girl has never had any reason to step into one of those shops, so why would she memorize their locations.

That's just bizarre.

comment #33

George Prager says ...

"Do me one favor. Please, please, PLEASE keep this blog going until your sons marry. I literally get giddy thinking about it."

The Brigadier and the Golf Widow
Met Jett's future in-laws for the first time last night. Dad is a Bill Buckley/Archie Bunker hybrid in a Costco golf shirt (He confided to me later that he doesn't really enjoy playing golf, but it's good for his business). Mom looks like Shirley MacLaine's hooker character in Some Came Running if she had survived the carnival massacre. I was relieved to find that they were fairly nice people. Since the ex and I were paying for the rehearsal dinner, I couldn't really argue about the choice of venue, a small Italian place close to Jett's apartment with a reasonably priced prix fixe menu and a good selection of wine. I could feel Jett's aggravation growing as I interrogated the pair about their admiration of Joe Lieberman and the Dad's strange affinity for Godfather III....
Posted by Jeffrey Wells on May 8, 2019 at 10:36 PM

comment #34

Sabina E says ...

I have a learning disability in math. I always did badly in high school math. I flunked college algebra twice before they took me in for an evaluation and found out I have a L.D. I was assigned a tutor to help me pass my third algebra class and she actually helped me appreciate math because she started talking about famous mathematicians and would make math more enjoyable for me, so then I actually did better. I passed the class with a C.

since then, I've had an appreciation for math and for mathematicians. I'll never be good at it, but I have a newfound respect for them.

teachers can make or break you. I'll never forigve those bastards in high school for making me HATE Shakespeare (despite me being obsessed with Tennessee Williams, Beckett, Ionesco), because they made it difficult, lame and boring.

comment #35

Sabina E says ...

by the way, I agree with Wells about curiosity being a prized virtue.

there's a huge difference between being "stupid" and being "ignorant." I am ignorant about certain issues and other cultures, but I am curious, so I try to make it a point to learn more, read, ask questions, travel, and meet new people.

comment #36

Movie Watcher says ...

I'm going back to school and I will have to take math classes. Accounting. I will use excel most of the time but I still have to take these classes. I am curious about some of the math procedures, even though I won't use them afterwards.

comment #37

Dances with Smurfs says ...

Jeff, I am surprised that you did not ask them if they had heard of The Hurt Locker. Though, after they did not know of any copy shops in the area I guess it would probably be a lost cause to ask a question like this. I agree with Rich S, please keep this blog going until your sons get married. I imagine the posts that come from this will have me laughing for days. Oh and George Prager comment #33, FTW.

comment #38

Pjm says ...

Movie Watcher:

How does this sound: "I'm going back to school and I will have to take movie classes. Screenwriting. I will use "StoryCraft" software most of the time but I still have to take these classes. I am curious about some of the storyteling procedures, even though I won't use them afterwards." ? Would you want to talk to this person about movies?

comment #39

the400blows says ...

PJM, I agree wih your posts. Let's face it, most of the stuff we learned in high school was probably useless. How much of it do we remember anyway? Probably zilch. That's why we took notes and highlighted our texts--so we can refer back to them later. To me, the whole point of high school was so we can become better analytic thinkers. To be able to question things instead of accepting them at face value. It's called broadening our horizons. I think that's what Wells meant by "curiosity."

comment #40

Gordn27 says ...

"I agree with Wells about curiosity being a prized virtue. "

I definitely agree with it. The strange thing is to see it so soon after the 'Saving Private Ryan' debacle that I notice Jeff got strangely silent about once it was proven that Wikipedia did not adequately answer his "curiosity".

comment #41

Movie Watcher says ...

pjm, let me clear it up for you: Even though I will be using excel for accounting calculations like ADDING/SUBTRACTING/MULTIPLYING, I still have to take the math classes, like ALGEBRA, WHICH I WON'T NEED after I graduate. That's what I meant. DO-YOU-GET-IT-NOW?

comment #42

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

I'm probably projecting a bit here, but when someone says they "don't like math" -- or specifically, they clearly remember not liking it as a youth in high school/college/whatever -- I think it has more to do with being frustrated by sitting through a class where you're basically studying abstract concepts ("solve for x? what's x!") which leaves very little -- if any -- immediate residue of knowledge you can use in everyday life.

Sure, as a base for logic it's essential, and as a mental exercise it's nearly as important -- no question. But it's not exactly as immediately "rewarding" as English, History, or Literature in the sense that you could walk away from those classes and start using that knowledge immediately -- if only in a juvenile way (dropping a new vocabulary word into a dirty joke, comparing a particularly strict teacher to a South American dictator, or using powerful Shakespeare quotes to justify the most heinous celebrity acts).

comment #43

Pinko Punko says ...

Prager! To the future with you! Wells writing Poland's obit or perhaps Spielberg getting the Thalberg award. Those are my requests.

comment #44

Pinko Punko says ...

Future fat Spielberg. Do I fly too close to the sun?????

comment #45

citizenmilton says ...

I've long since conceded to this form of generic incuriosity. There's just so many of those zombies, I wave the white flag of surrender on those fronts.

What riles me these days is people you meet who are either in school, or claim to be eventually going to school, with Declared Major X.... and then, 9 times out of 10, there's at least some half-assed semi-informed question you can ask them about their declared field of interest.

You ask the question, and get: A BLANK STARE.

This kind of thing happens to me all the time:

Person: "Yeah, I'm starting my second semester in the Fall. Psychology"

Me: "Oh? That's cool. I just read a review of Steven Pinker's new book on recent neuroscience; fascinating stuff - have you guys covered any of his work? I loved his language book"

Person: Blank Stare. Silence.

Or...

Person: "I'm declared as economics, but, that's just for undergrad - what I'm really gearing for is law school."

Me: "Oh yeah? I'm fascinated by Supreme Court cases - that Citizens United ruling last week was quite the story - have you followed that much?"

Person: BLANK STARE. Silence.

....
Now, I'm not saying that in these cases people should be expected to go off on a well-rehearsed riff on the precise topic I suggested.

All I'm asking for is the slightest acknowledgement that I've shown an interest in them, their thoughts, the field they are supposedly going to devote their labors to. And given them a platform with which to extol the virtues of their planned field of labor, segue right from the specific to the general, or a related specific....

And yet? Zip.

And it's not just students... even people who claim to want to start a business in this or that field, ask them about it on the slightest level of detail.... often, all you'll get is amorphous grunting, stares into the horizon...

I hope that electronic forms of learning, which structurally depend on curiosity/clicking, can restore and resurrect this trait, which is becoming increasingly difficult to find.

comment #46

Pjm says ...

Ok, Movie Watcher, I'll belabor the point: "Even though I will be using StoryCraft for plotting out my second act, like CHARACTER ARCS/PLOT POINTS//CONFLICTS, I still have to take the writing classes, like SCREENPLAY STRUCTURE, WHICH I WON'T NEED after I graduate. That's what I meant. DO-YOU-GET-IT-NOW?" My point is that you WILL need algebra, because knowledge of algebra (and trigonometry, and calculus) makes one a thoughtful, well-rounded person, and it is not possible to create great art without being well-rounded. Just ask S. Spielberg...

CitizenK...: What if I said "I think it has more to do with being frustrated by sitting through a class where you're basically studying abstract concepts ("The killer's motivation!? What killer!?!") which leaves very little -- if any -- immediate residue of knowledge you can use in everyday life. Calculus is as relevant to everyday life as the desires of blue aliens on "Pandora." Both are equally as abstract, and equally as compelling...

comment #47

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

Hey -- I wasn't the one comparing calculus to screenwriting, so I'm not sure what Pandora has to do with anything.

But as far as your analogy goes, I'm pretty sure most people would probably rather extrapolate plot points -- which is personally fulfilling insofar as it fires up the creatives juices -- than solve for x (which certainly exercises your brain, but in a way I would argue most people find less pleasurable).

Again, not saying one is better, or even more exciting than the other. And I actually quite like logic/math. But for people bored by those disciplines -- to paraphrase Chris Rock -- I understand.

comment #48

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

What's with the Spielberg reference to "well-roundedness," btw? Did he give some kind of interview on that subject, or are you being sarcastic? I'm really not trying to be thick, I just honestly have no idea what it means.

comment #49

Pjm says ...

CKFCG: Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's pretty depressing to me that anyone would find learning calculus to be any less rewarding than learning the language of movies, and I have little interest in the films such people would make, just as I would be pretty uninterested in films made by filmmakers who were uninterested in reading Shakespeare...

comment #50

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

Hey man -- I am with you! I'm not arguing that I think that's the way things should be, I think it's just the way things are. It's depressing to me, too.

But everyone can't be interested in everything all the time, either, can you imagine what a chaotic society that would lead to (although arguably a lot more fun!)?

But, you know, there are plenty of areas in life that I know very little about, too. Needlework and automobile mechanics would be two examples that spring to mind. No real desire to learn, either. But I do respect the hell out of the people that are good at these crafts.

Aside from trying to be as well-rounded as possible, I think respect is ultimately the most important thing.

comment #51

Pjm says ...

CKFCG: I just personally find his films rather simplistic and trite. Quite often wonderfully visually realized, but not the most complex studies of the world...

comment #52

MDOC says ...

What ticks me off about high school math is how they completely skip financial math. My classmates and I spent hours learning geometry so we can calculate the volume of a 12 ounce can yet we can't tell you how onlg it takes to pay off a credit card at 14% interest. No wonder we than get blind sided by the credit card companies giving out free junk to college students that apply. Thanks American school system.

comment #53

acai berry scams says ...

Thanks for this well done article.

autism help
cure autism help

debt settlement companies reviews

where to buy acai berry s

comment #54

Emiliejuan says ...

If I have a math issue, I use my calculator -- end of story. The educators who put me through my pre-pubescent and teenaged math classes were sadists, pure and simple.

comment #55

p90x says ...

The cost for P90X is about three months of a paid gym membership but you get to keep the program forever

comment #56

maturestudent says ...

Arithmetic is an important maths skill. If you're stuck on maths homework, you can try private tutors or do some maths revision online.