Plain Stone Talk
What did Oliver Stone say that was so inaccurate and/or offensive? He used a certain kind of Tea Party-associated anti-Semitic shorthand — “Jewish domination of the media” — that is considered a huge no-no in this country, for obvious reasons. That plus the wearing of a thin, sinister-looking moustache is what essentially prompted the dust-up, which began with a two-day-old interview in the London Sunday Times.
Stone is an old anti-corporate, antiwar-machine lefty from way back. I’ve come to know him fairly well through personal contact over the years and through mutual friends, and because it takes one to know one, I suppose. He’s very bright, engaged, inquisitive, insightful, and bold-strokey in his thinking. The heat Stone is now receiving seems to be about certain parties believing that he’s suddenly revealed his true anti-Semitic colors. I don’t believe that for a second.
I do believe, however, that Stone has a Showtime series coming up called “Oliver Stone’s Secret History of America,” and that he’s decided not to trot out the usual homilies and rote history-class statistics when being interviewed. He’s going to go outside the safe zone. That’s what Stone does time and again (except when he made World Trade Center).
The other statements Stone made about Hitler and his supporters don’t seem all that weird. “Hitler was a Frankenstein, but there was also a Dr. Frankenstein,” he said. “German industrialists, the Americans and the British. He had a lot of support.” I’ve never read any books about the extent of Hitler’s support in these countries in the 1930s, but isn’t what Stone said more or less thought to be true?
Stone also said that Hitler “did far more damage to the Russians than the Jewish people.” This statement is certainly not inaccurate.
According to a Wikipedia WWII death chart, the total number of Russan deaths, both military and civilian, during World War II came to 23,954,000 — a little more than 14% of the total Russan population. That’s a staggering figure. (The total number of U.S. military/civilian deaths during that conflict was 418,500, which represented 1/3 of 1% of the population at the time.) The total number of Jewish Holocaust deaths during World War II was 5,752,400.
And yet the Holocaust, according to U.S. media and history books, is the reigning horror of World War II, and not the fact that almost one in seven Russians were killed by Nazi Germany. This impression is due, of course, to the racial hatred behind the Holocaust and to the coldly methodical manner in which German officers and soldiers carried out the attempted extermination of European Jewry. But why is it that awareness of the scale of Russian WWII deaths barely registers alongside the Holocaust in this country?
Stone was essentially observing that the U.S. media (as well as the public school history books) have placed an understandable but disproportionate emphasis on the Holocaust in considering the totality of horrors caused by Nazi Germany, and that certain powerful figures in this country’s big media constellation have probably had a hand in this. That doesn’t seem like a hugely crazy thing to say. Not that awareness of the Holocaust isn’t an immensely important lesson for each and every citizen to learn and reflect upon. But where are the Russian death museums in this country? Where are all the Russan death documentaries that have either won or been nominated for Oscars?
“In trying to make a broader historical point about the range of atrocities the Germans committed against many people, I made a clumsy association about the Holocaust, for which I am sorry and I regret,” Stone said in response. “Jews obviously do not control media or any other industry.”
Is Stone also saying that Neal Gabler was fundamentally mistaken when he wrote a book called An Empire of Their Own? Is he saying that a belief that Jews were heavily involved and invested in the 20th Century “needle trade” is an anti-Semitic myth? Is he saying that the diamond district in midtown Manhattan is run by Swedes and Danes? If so, this proves if nothing else that Stone is first and foremost an independent thinker.
Actually, I agree with the crux of you have written, Jeff.
There’s probably a way to bring up these points without sounding anti-Semitic, but he failed to do that. And now whatever conversation he wanted to start about Russia will be pretty much impossible.
Right now a Downfall parody is being made, where Hitler explodes after being informed by his officers that Oliver called him an easy scapegoat and creation of western capitalism. “What’s next? Will that commie have positive things to say about my art career???”
I’m sure it will also include some cheap shots re: Alexander and the amateurish South of the Border.
You said “right-wing-associated anti-Semitic shorthand.”
Seriously? This is typical Left wing nonsense. Go to any anti-war rally and you’ll see this kind of anti-semitism on display. Anti-semitism is a cornerstone of the American Left. The right wing, scummy as they may be, are the only ones who stick up for the Jews.
Must … resist … bait … but … can’t.
There is a difference between the systematic and purposeful, even scientific, eradication of a specific people and casualties of war, however grand. Philosophically speaking one can say death is death, and all is bad. There were some 60 million WWII deaths, and one can say, relatively speaking, that 6 million Jews is just a drop in the bucket. But the Jews were the only ones systematically targeted by the Nazis, not as enemies, but as enemies of humanity. That’s what makes genocide disproportionately disgusting on the moral scale.
its just a failure of the media on every level thats destroying this country. hours and hours of complete bullshit on the air. i doubt there will be any effort to get to the main point of what Stone said.
Another way to put it: Hitler’s goal was never zero Russians. Or zero Americans. But zero Jews? Yep.
Well said, Jeff. Stone’s father maybe Jewish.
The left also prefer not to acknowledge that Stalin murdered/starved twenty to sixty million plus Soviets. And Mao likewise murdered/starved thirty to eight million. The focus remains on Adolf while the Chairman and Uncle Jo go unnoticed, yet held in esteem by 90 % of university professors.
Is this a shock o anyone? Stone has a history of sticking his foot in his mouth when speaking about things he doesn’t know the facts about. Chalk it up to a shrug. Thankfully, he stopped being relevant years ago, so it’s hardly like he’s a Mel Gibson or anything.
And Mao likewise murdered/starved thirty to EIGHTY million.
Thank you Thunderballs…which is something I never thought I would type in my life.
Yeah Jeff, you’re dead wrong on the right-wing Anti-Semetic belief. We’re normally staunch supporters of Israel. It makes sense as the religious right would identify pretty quickly with the religious state of Israel.
Jeff – while we are throwing around percentages, why not complete the thought and underline the “staggering percentage” of European jewry exterminated during WWII – by some estimates 60-65%? Or the Polish percentage of nearly 90%?
Well, that’s silly. The right wing generally supports the right of Israel to exist because the religious right and particularly the evangelicals believe that the Jews in Israel is one of the signs of the second coming. Which, following through, means that if/when Jesus comes back, all the Jews in Israel are going to hell (along with all other non-saved). Which is why being pro-Israel is not necessarily pro-Jew, just as being anti-Israel is not necessarily anti-Jew.
(My response was to CinematicalyCorrect, btw)
Thunderballs/Cinematically: Just because some liberals are angry with Israeli poltics and the often brutal machinations of the Israeli state doesn’t mean liberals don’t “stick up for the Jews.”
Right-wing support for Israel is way more anti-Arab than pro-Jew.
Abbey – Kudos on the simplistic talking points on Israel. Impressive that you have such an amazing insight into the minds of conservatives and the reasons they support Israel. That’s a hell of a skill.
However, maybe, just maybe conservatives tend to favor Israel because they prefer free and democratic societies to Holocaust-denying, freedom-limiting, sharia-oriented states.
And Jeff, whatever point Stone was attempting to make was completely derailed by the “Jews control the media” card. Maybe we can ask him who controls the media in Venezuela…
“However, maybe, just maybe conservatives tend to favor Israel because they prefer free and democratic societies to Holocaust-denying, freedom-limiting, sharia-oriented states.”
Translation: liberals hate freedom and Jews. Priceless.
Translation: liberals hate freedom and Jews. Priceless.
George Will translates it less harshly. Liberals prefer equality over freedom. In the case of Israel, liberal empathy is with the Palestinians.
GoGoCrank has it totally correct. There is a huge difference between the systematic attempt to wipe an entire people off the face of the earth and the horrific casualties of. war. Anyone who doesn’t understand this needs to go back and read their history, and not just that relating to the Holocaust. The Turks and the Armenians, Stalin and the kulaks, they all involve systematic attempts to wipe out a people or group.
“I’ve come to know him fairly well through personal contact over the years and through mutual friends, and because it takes one to know one, I suppose.”
Yeah, and Whoopi knows Mel.
“But why is it that awareness of the scale of Russian WWII deaths barely registers alongside the Holocaust in this country?”
Because the Russkies weren’t exactly saints back then themselves, especially since they once formed an alliance with the Axis? Plus, raping German women after the war and running over people with tanks in Czechoslovakia sort of cancels it out. Besides, the Jews, gays and Gypsies didn’t ask to be gassed, while the Russkies were just horrible at planning for war.
“But where are the Russian death museums in this country?”
Why should we honor people only willing to take our side when it became convenient? If realpolitik were a noble cause, then you might as well give a Nobel Peace Prize to Cameron for freeing a Lockerbie terrorist to help BP’s bottom line.
“The other statements Stone made about Hitler and his supporters don’t seem all that weird. “Hitler was a Frankenstein, but there was also a Dr. Frankenstein,” he said. “German industrialists, the Americans and the British. He had a lot of support.” I’ve never read any books about the extent of Hitler’s support in these countries in the 1930s, but isn’t what Stone said more or less thought to be true?”
Yes, but much like slavery and segregation, it was a perverted form of capitalism which attempted to rationalize and make mainstream an entire culture of racism.
Abbey: “Just because some liberals are angry with Israeli poltics and the often brutal machinations of the Israeli state doesn’t mean liberals don’t “stick up for the Jews.”
Really? How many people on the left called out Helen Thomas? Or Al Sharpton or Farrakhan?
What a morass to wade into here.
One– the European Left is virulently anti-Semitic. The American Left is only less so, but since they so often aspire to be the West of Western European Left, they emulate Europe’s hatred of all those damn Jews who prefer to not die at the hands of others (whether Nazis, Arabs or jihadis).
There is nothing “tea party” about this. To even think that association has any merit is to see the world in Orwellian terms– up is down, left is right, good is bad, etc. Stone was saying what Leftists from Berkeley to Ann Arbor say every single day.
Two– not a single thing about Stone’s thesis is bold or novel. Not. A. Single. Thing. It’s an argument as old as the Holocaust itself– “Gee, 6 million isn’t so bad when you compare it to 20 million.” Of course, as noted in this thread, Hitler had enough hate to go around– plenty for the Russians and other untermensch, but a *special* kind of hatred for the Jews. It’s one thing to kill lots of hated Russians in a war on foreign soil– it’s another thing altogether to kill *your own* Jews, and import Jews wherever found, in order to exterminate them. The “difference in kind” makes all the difference in the world.
I’ve read countless reputable historians discuss the carnage of the Russian front and its uniquely savage character. It is truly a forgotten war here in the West and America. But none of those historians have ever irresponsibly suggested that this savagery was akin to the Holocaust.
Three– how “bold” is Stone when it’s the same Howard Zinn stuff you’ve been able to read on college campuses for decades now? The only reason Stone and his enablers consider this “bold” is because the rest of the sane world sees through this anti-Semitic, conspiracy-theory-ridden “Loose Change” scenario mongering.
The only difference between what Stone says here and what Mel Gibson says on the side of PCH is that Stone wasn’t drunk.
For me, the worst part in this story is that The American Jewish Committee has now labeled him an anti-semite.
Are they aware that Oliver is half Jewish?
And what did he really say that was so derogatory? He may not have said it very WELL (he’s always been a better writer than orator) but there’s nothing there that justifies being labeled someone who hates an entire race of human beings.
It’s so childish for a group to say, “Our dead people are more deserving of recognition than your dead people.”
Oh, one other thing: Hitler killed a lot of Russians. You know who killed even more Russians than Hitler? Stalin.
Likewise, Castro kills more Cubans than Americans ever have, Mao killed more Chinese than the entire USMC ever did, etc.
I suspect we won’t see THAT part in Stone’s bold movie, though.
Oh, for fuck’s sake…
Religious Conservatives support Israel because they’re obsessed with The End Times.
Political Conservatives support Israel because they’re obsessed with going to war against Arabs.
American Liberals are generally idiots when it comes to Israel; reflexively siding with the Palestinians because they can’t process the idea of a conflict where the rich nation is “good” and the poor nation is “bad.”
Stone is a great filmmaker, and his point about Hitler needing context and Americans ignorant view of WWII as a fairytale where Uncle Sam saved The Jews from a monster that came out of nowhere is well taken. But I’m sorry, once any variations on “the jews control the media” or “blah blah Israel Lobby” come out of someone I don’t need to know another thing about them. Fuck him, as a person anyway (and a documentarian as of late.)
Anti-semitism is the original sin of Western Civilization, always under the surface. That people STILL need that explained to them is WHY we need to continue recognizing the singular evil of The Holocaust.
Chumley: “Are they aware that Oliver is half Jewish?”
So that makes it ok?
We should talk about how Russia’s contribution to the war effort and the enormous cost they paid during it are neglected in American histories of the war. But we shouldn’t have to minimize the Holocaust to do it.
No, DeeZee. My point is that I think they overreacted by calling him an anti-semite.
Actually, MovieBob, I’m an atheist apolitical conservative absolutely unobsessed with Israel.
I just tend to think that any country that allows their hot women to wear bikinis and not headscarves on their beaches is a country I’m willing to stick up for.
Chumley: Stoned seemed to overreact to how the Holocaust is represented in the media, so I guess it’s only appropriate.
What a, um, fascinating thread.
“I’ve never read any books about the extent of Hitler’s support in these countries in the 1930s,but isn’t what Stone said more or less thought to be true?” Staggering. Just staggering.
DeeZee, please name me ten films or documentaries that you’ve seen about what the Russians went through in WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_Bund
Oops, my hate speech fell out! Again!
Chumley: “DeeZee, please name me ten films or documentaries that you’ve seen about what the Russians went through in WW2.”
Can you name any Russian documentaries which focus on pogroms?
Man, you can practically imagine Rothman being stressed out over the prospect of Mulligan shooting off her mouth next and totally turning off people from seeing Wall Street 2.
To Thunderballs and all the other right wingers who claim that they are less anti semetic because they support Israel
Wrong.
Right wingers don’t give two shits about the future of the Jews. However, Big Business DOES give as many shits (and or recommendations to invade this or that country) as it takes to maintain Israel as a militaristic mercenary state smack dab in the most conflict ridden section of the planet.
Why?
Because having Israel around means that we essentially have a second military force to do our bidding in the middle east and virtually anywhere else on the planet. (see: Noam Chomsky). And we all know how the right wing loves military power.
If we had already conquered the middle east, which were clearly working on, then we would have no reason to support Israel. Who needs another technologically advanced ally? We have plenty of those.
Trust me. If the middle east didn’t hold most of the worlds oil then Israel wouldn’t fucking exist where it is today.
And you thought your precious politicians really cared about a bunch of jews hanging out on the other side of the world. Rigghhhhht. Republicans don’t give two shits about their own citizens (see: opposition to just about every move towards social reform that occurred in the last three decades AT LEAST)
Oh, but those Jews in Israel. Such warm feelings towards those folks.
Idiots.
If the middle east were already conquered as Big Business
iPhone typos
plainview: Well, it works both ways. If there wasn’t any oil and Israel, then those Middle Eastern countries wouldn’t have any scapegoats to blow up people with bombs and stone women. I mean, yeah, we deserve the blame for the Shah, but we didn’t force ‘em to “elect” Amadinky or Quedaffy.
So now the tea partiers are not only racist, but hate Jews as well? Where does JW get this stuff?
Has anyone seen any footage of the anti-war rallies earlier this decade? They are FILLED to the brim with anti-semitism and anti-Jew signage.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/
That’s just a small taste of the shit that goes on at LEFT WING rallies. plainview, perhaps you are right about right wingers and their support of Jews, but please explain to me then how the Left is not anti-semitic?
Anti-semitism has a home on the Left just as racism has a home on the right. Deal with it.
“Anti-semitism has a home on the Left just as racism has a home on the right. Deal with it.”
Both extremist liberal and extremist conservative movements have strong tendencies towards anti-Semitism. But you act like namecalling is going to solve problems. All you’re doing is proving you’re a douchebag. I am a liberal. HI! I know many liberals, being from a liberal area, and I can tell you personally that NONE OF THEM REMOTELY HATE JEWS. In fact, my family has Thanksgiving with, and goes on vacation in the summer with this awesome Jewish family every year. They’re really cool people. I guarantee you, a good 95% of American liberals have no ill will towards the Israelis, Jews, or Judaism. Just like how a good 75% of the conservatives aren’t racist! ^_____^
And, on the whole, I admire the Israeli people. But the thing you have to realize is that Israel has a disturbingly unstable government, because of a really poorly designed political system. This is why Israel almost never has a competent government. So half the time, our greatest ally in the region is TOTALLY INSANE. Obviously, this is a bit of a problem.
What Stone and many on the Left many times forget is that the Russians and Hitler were Allies. Stalin was caught with his pants down. He trusted Hitler and many were killed because of it. One day the American Left were against war with Hitler, then the next day when he turned on Stalin…all of a sudden they wanted war with Hitler.
I believe this puts all this Leftist moral equivalency nonsense to rest:
http://countercultureconservative.wordpress.com/2010/07/27/mel-gibson-vs-oliver-stone-anti-semitism-left-and-right/
That so many Liberals actually believe this shit is so painful to me. I weep for America.
80% of European Jews were killed in the Holocaust. That’s pretty heavy damage, Mr. Wells. There are only 13 million Jews today, most of whom live in Israel and the United States. An entire people on a continent essentially was wiped out. Your comments reflect staggering ignorance and insensitivity (as well as toadyism).
“The total number of Jewish Holocaust deaths during World War II was 5,752,400.”
AREN’T YOU GOING TO STATE THE PERCENTAGE OF THE JEWISH POPULATION WAS KILLED OFF LIKE YOU DID FOR THE U.S. AND THE RUSSIANS? OF COURSE NOT BECAUSE IT WOULD RUIN YOUR POINT! 75-80% OF EUROPEAN JEWS WERE MURDERED AND THAT’S WHY IT’S CONSIDERED MORE SIGNIFICANT.
Good job, way to be thorough and straight-forward. I’m so tired of this biased, unfair bullshit.
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